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LCC VS LEGACY, WSJ article

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jetflier

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 22, 2003
Posts
718
Well the airline watchers are now revising their projections on the "great debate" of LCC VS Legacy....
'Legacy' Airlines May Outfly Discount Rivals – Wall Street Journal
By MELANIE TROTTMAN and SUSAN CAREY

October 30, 2006; Page C1

As the airline industry finally starts to gain altitude, investors in the still-risky sector should be especially wary of the carriers that specialize in cheap seats. They're flying into head winds.

Not only are discount carriers increasingly competing against each other, but they are up against some reinvigorated adversaries: big, older airlines. These so-called legacy carriers now have the best of both worlds -- some of the lower costs that discounters enjoy and the premium overseas traffic that they don't.

All that is raising questions about the discounter model: low fares and rapid, mostly domestic growth.

Last week, discounter darling JetBlue Airways swung to a third-quarter net loss from a modest year-earlier profit and said it will further slow its growth rate by reducing the size of its planned fleet. The parent of low-cost carrier AirTran Airways likewise swung to a quarterly loss and is postponing aircraft deliveries. Meanwhile, Frontier Airlines reported a sharply lower profit for its fiscal second quarter, which ended Sept. 30.

Even the typically unflappable Southwest Airlines is having a bumpy ride. It turned in a respectable third-quarter profit two weeks ago but fell short of expectations.

Shares of most of these discounters fell after the release of their results. Southwest's stagnant stock fell 3% the day it reported. On Friday, Frontier fell 3.7%, and AirTran Holdings Inc. was down 6.4% after reporting results the day before. JetBlue's stock rose after its quarterly report, though its closing price of $12.25 Friday remained far below its 52-week high of $16.85.

The legacy airlines have been restraining their growth as the discounters rapidly add seats, and the bigger companies' stocks largely have improved due to increasing profits or sharply narrowed losses. The day before Southwest's shares fell 3%, the stock of American Airline's parent, AMR, rose 7.5% on news of a year-over-year return to profit.

Michael Boyd of the Boyd Group Inc., an aviation consulting and forecasting firm in Evergreen, Colo., has for some time been predicting that discounters would run into challenges. "They're running out of places to fly," says Mr. Boyd, who owns no airline stocks. If there is a downturn in the economy and demand softens, he adds, "One or two may not survive."

The bigger airlines, by contrast, are in better shape than they've been in years, thanks to aggressive cost-cutting and streamlining -- changes inspired by their discount rivals. If demand turns down, these carriers have older aircraft they can take out of service, and the ability to shed feeder flights operated by regional affiliates. The discounters have newer planes, which are too costly to simply retire.

The discounters need to grow rapidly to keep costs down, spreading overhead over more capacity. They are constantly looking for new places to fly. AirTran is adding winter flights from Detroit and White Plains, N.Y., to three Florida cities. JetBlue started flights to more than a dozen new destinations this year.

"Discounters are realizing an inconvenient truth: Slower growth may in fact improve profitability," said JP Morgan analyst Jamie Baker.

Consider AMR and JetBlue. AMR shrank third-quarter capacity on nonregional routes by 2.4% from a year earlier and returned to a profit as it filled more of its seats. JetBlue, which increased its third-quarter capacity by 19%, swung to a small loss as it filled fewer seats.

A few years back, many industry watchers assumed discounters would dominate simply because of lower costs. And though their costs remain lower, many discounters underestimated the power of the legacy carriers' size and reach, which allow them to serve more major markets that draw higher fares, Mr. Baker said.

The struggle between the two business models is by no means over, said Dan Kasper, a managing director and airline specialist at LECG LLC in Cambridge, Mass. "The low-cost carriers have been pummeling the legacy airlines for five years. Well, now the legacies are rallying," he said. Mr. Kasper doesn't own any airline stocks.

To be sure, all the airlines were hurt in the third quarter by still-high fuel prices and the government ban on bringing liquids on planes in carry-on baggage. But discounters were hurt disproportionately by the now-relaxed ban because they tend to operate short-haul flights on which passengers prefer to carry rather than check luggage.

CreditSuisse analyst Daniel McKenzie, who has AirTran at a "buy" rating, trimmed his fourth-quarter earnings estimate for the airline. CreditSuisse expects to receive or seek investment-banking compensation from the airline.

J.P. Morgan's Mr. Baker raised his JetBlue rating to "neutral" from the equivalent of a "sell" and raised his 2007 profit forecast but not with a lot of enthusiasm. "As turnarounds go, United appeals more," he said in a report, referring to prospects for the UAL Corp. unit. J.P. Morgan has an investment-banking relationship with JetBlue. Mr. Baker doesn't personally own any airline stocks.

Southwest, the most mature and consistently profitable of the discounters, reported disappointing third-quarter profit that was flat with a year earlier excluding a big charge in the latest period. Southwest still plans to meet its 15% earnings growth target for this year and has been more aggressive about raising fares to cover high fuel prices. But the Dallas-based airline's fuel hedges, which largely have protected it from high prices, are eroding, narrowing its favorable cost gap with competitors.

Meanwhile, AirTran, which ordered more than 100 new jetliners in 2003 and has been growing by 20% to 25% a year, now thinks its capacity is growing too fast with fuel prices this high. Last month, the airline said it planned to defer deliveries of some aircraft. In announcing its third-quarter loss, AirTran said it may slow fleet growth more. By trimming growth to 10% in 2008, AirTran would reduce its exposure to new markets, which tend to start slowly and not make money immediately.

"There is some value to size," said Stan Gadek, AirTran's chief financial officer. "It will improve our revenues if we can get there in a responsible way."
 
Jetflier, this article is very much correct, a lot of pilots have failed to listen to what the customer is saying. I've seen customers willing to pay $100-$300 more to aviod the new yield management strategies by the the LCC's, specifically SWA.
 
Yup.. good article.. Watch out for the big carriers, more competetive, lean and mean..... However, the LCC's will be around ... they aren't going away. Different product.. Different customers.. thats pretty obvious.

Good Luck to all.. cripe.. we all just want to make a living and chill comfortably. Union yes.

Do a Kayak.com search and find out who has the lowest fares... hint.. its the big boys... Check it out for yourself.
 
Not only are discount carriers increasingly competing against each other, but they are up against some reinvigorated adversaries: big, older airlines. These so-called legacy carriers now have the best of both worlds -- some of the lower costs that discounters enjoy and the premium overseas traffic that they don't."[/quote]

Just like Boyd predicted.
 
SELL, MORTIMER, SELL! WE'LL BE RUINED !!!! WHERE THE HELL IS BEEKS? TURN THOSE MACHINES BACK ON!!!!!!

Yawn . . . . same crap, different day.

AirTran will make money in the fourth quarter, amd for the year . . . Management will stuff ridiculous sums in their pockets . . .

UAL management will continue to "put lipstick on the pig" until they can sell it. . . .

People will jump in and out of the various airline stocks, the brokerage houses will make money . . . . life goes on.

\.


.
 
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Just like Boyd predicted...

Are you serious??? Boyd uses the shotgun approach...if you say enough things about whatever, eventually something might be right.
 
Jetflier, this article is very much correct, a lot of pilots have failed to listen to what the customer is saying. I've seen customers willing to pay $100-$300 more to aviod the new yield management strategies by the the LCC's, specifically SWA.


Yep...people have been avoiding SWA for about 30 something years now...
 
"The bigger airlines, by contrast, are in better shape than they've been in years, thanks to aggressive cost-cutting and streamlining -- changes inspired by their discount rivals."

What this article doesn't mention is that most (not all) of these legacy carriers have gotten their cost advantages by raping and pillaging the workforce while hiding under the protection of bankruptcy.
 
Just like Boyd predicted...

Are you serious??? Boyd uses the shotgun approach

No, he doesn't do that at all. You imply that he sends a mix message by arguing both sides of an issue. That simply is not true. He has been very consistent on this eventuality given the current market forces.
 
Look what Boyd was saying 4 months ago. Tool!!!

You might notice that he said SWA will have to adjust it's mode of operation.

"it would be foolish to assume that WN will stick with an MO that worked in the past, but won't do as well in the future."
 
UAL management will continue to "put lipstick on the pig" until they can sell it. . . .


Give it a rest... last I checked UAL's margins were moving in the opposite direction of Airtran. Airtran looses 4.3m, UAL gains 190m. I can only assume you may someday tire of your predictions regarding UAL, especially given your continued failure of accuracy.
 
What this article doesn't mention is that most (not all) of these legacy carriers have gotten their cost advantages by raping and pillaging the workforce while hiding under the protection of bankruptcy.

Yup, we were violated. OTOH the pilots who went to work for JB, AirTran, etc just said "have your way with us, we are just so happy to be here"
 
"Yup, we were violated. OTOH the pilots who went to work for JB, AirTran, etc just said "have your way with us, we are just so happy to be here"

BINGO
 
You might notice that he said SWA will have to adjust it's mode of operation.

"it would be foolish to assume that WN will stick with an MO that worked in the past, but won't do as well in the future."

Well just show me the airline to emulate then, you know the one who consistently makes money, pays it's employees outstanding salaries, never spent a day in bankruptcy and passengers enjoy flying on.

Small list, huh?
 
UAL management will continue to "put lipstick on the pig" until they can sell it. . . .
.


That must be some good lipstick because they seem to be doing quite well. I'm sure AAI would have been happy to have performed as well.

* UAL reported after-tax net income of $190 million. Excluding
reorganization and special items, this constituted a year-over-year
improvement of $95 million.

* Basic earnings per share was $1.62 and diluted earnings per share was
$1.30. The company began recording income tax expense which reduced the
quarter's diluted earnings per share by $0.43.

* Third quarter operating profit of $335 million was an improvement of
$170 million over the comparable quarter in 2005. Excluding special
items, the year-over-year improvement was $140 million.

* Continuing revenue and productivity improvements more than offset a $293
million increase in consolidated fuel expense.

* Operating cash flow totaled $131 million. The company's cash position
was $4.9 billion at September 30, 2006, including $860 million of
restricted cash.

Operating Margin Increases
UAL reported third quarter net income of $190 million
 
Well just show me the airline to emulate then, you know the one who consistently makes money, pays it's employees outstanding salaries, never spent a day in bankruptcy and passengers enjoy flying on.

Small list, huh?

That list would have a population of zero US carriers. That's a fact. Like it or not, but the people who really "enjoy flying" WN are happy when nothing was repo'd last week, cousin Jed got probation, and the pit bull ordinance failed.
 
Like it or not, but the people who really "enjoy flying" WN are happy when nothing was repo'd last week, cousin Jed got probation, and the pit bull ordinance failed.

Really??? Well on the 40+ daily DAL-HOU flights there are quite a bit of suits on those flights...and they keep coming back....just like on any other city pairs...

Cousin Jed's money spends just al well anywhere....don't you think that Delta/AA/UAL/NWA/JB/U would like to have cousin Jed's money? Do they actually not want it? Or do those carriers just not even allow cousin Jed on the airplane?

Tejas
 
Really??? Well on the 40+ daily DAL-HOU flights there are quite a bit of suits on those flights...and they keep coming back....just like on any other city pairs...

Cousin Jed's money spends just al well anywhere....don't you think that Delta/AA/UAL/NWA/JB/U would like to have cousin Jed's money? Do they actually not want it? Or do those carriers just not even allow cousin Jed on the airplane?

Tejas

Sure they want the money, but this isn't their target market. That's the difference, this is the LCC target market.
 
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I don't know about the rest of the legacies, but I looked up United. Looks like total liabilities of 26 Billion on the 10-Q. I hope I am not reading it wrong, but why are the analysts not talking about the debt situation at their conference.
 
I don't know about the rest of the legacies, but I looked up United. Looks like total liabilities of 26 Billion on the 10-Q. I hope I am not reading it wrong, but why are the analysts not talking about the debt situation at their conference.
That's long term debt; they are producing a profit while making the payments.
 
Jetflier, this article is very much correct, a lot of pilots have failed to listen to what the customer is saying. I've seen customers willing to pay $100-$300 more to aviod the new yield management strategies by the the LCC's, specifically SWA.


Yep...people have been avoiding SWA for about 30 something years now...
Nah, not 30 years, just the last few months.
 
If we told a mortgage lender not to worry about that large debt because we are making the payments, they would laugh at us.
Actually that's a little different, corporate debt is part of business. Take GM for example, their long term debt is over $300 billion; Ford, $261 billion.
 

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