CAL B scale

[seahorse]

And this 95 hours was not only flown willingly, but welcomed by many of the pilots. Heck, when CAL furloughed about 200 pilots more than they needed to, someone had to make up the flying time and some considered themselves indeed "in the money" bragging openly in ops how they're picking up open time from reserves, building up their paychecks. Strange, some pilot groups prohibit open time pickup during a furlough and even have it in the contract to build lines of lower time, not zoom them up to FAA max.

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I do not feel very much unity and brotherhood among these guys. I'm not just talking about the scabs, but other guys too. The attitude seems to be "me me me." I have my doubts when 2008 rolls around. Lots of doubts!

 

[Jonny Sacko]

No way man. YOU must continue chewing on the other guy during the flight. Me too. We MUST!!

 

[CALnTX]

I thought upgrades went to 2001 hires. That is a little closer to 5 years not 2.

I think he meant since those guys were hired in 01 and furloughed until late 04.

The guy that just held it in EWR is an 01 hire came back a year on the 757 and is in training as capt.

More like 3 years as far as total time with the company. 05 hires will see it on the next bid in January or August. That will make it 2 years. Heck I missed by 200 numbers and was hired in June 2005.

Anyways hope that helps.

 

[FLY CONTINENTAL]

The pay at CAL just plain stinks. When all the other legacies start hiring, CAL will once again become the legacy that nobody wants to work for unless you want to live in one of their hubs, which is unlikely. All other legacies have starting pay close to $40 and include health insurance. Even Wal-Mart and McDonalds give their employees health insurance when the start working. CAL is just popular now because it is the only legacy hiring. Next year when UAL and DAL start hiring lots of guys, CAL will quickly go to the bottom of the list as far as places to work.

I am very glad you are going to JetBlue--- your attitude will fit right in. As a matter of fact I am surprised they havn't caught on to your neagative attitiude. I have many friends there and you don't seem to fit the mold. I will make sure you don't come to CO, that info is easy to pass on when you leave COEX. FDX is hiring,UPs is hiring, SWA is hiring---- You might let JB know about your attitude--- I am shocked.

 

[Truckdriver]

FlyContinental,

A thread that is started with the topic of a B scale is negative to begin with. I just voiced an opinion about the pay and benefits. I never said CAL was a "bad" place to be, I just said that when others start hiring CAL may not be on the top of the list as far as legacies go. I also never once brought JBLU into the thread, but you CAL guys are almost as defensive as the JetBlue guys when bad things are said about CAL. I still stand by my original statement and intent that CAL will not be on the top of everyone's list when the other legacies are hiring and it will be because of the starting pay and no insurance. I don't see much negativity in stating that.

 

[GogglesPisano]

2 cents from a disinterested observer: CAL will still be a desirable place to work when the other legacies start hiring because they have demonstrated they have the best management of any legacy carrier. As far as the first year pay goes: It's an investment, like UPS -- or getting an MBA. Some of us can afford to invest, others cannot.

 

[IAHERJ]

Good reply googlesPissano. Why would someone even bring up this subject(the origional poster) if he did not have a beef with the airline mentioned. There are a lot of Express guys who either were passed over or decided not to come and now regret their decision not to flow over. These guys are now a bit resentful of those who did chose to work here. This is evident in other forums I frequent. It is a very small few who feel this way but I can almost understand their feeling.

IAHERJ

 

[CALnTX]

FlyContinental,

A thread that is started with the topic of a B scale is negative to begin with. I just voiced an opinion about the pay and benefits. I never said CAL was a "bad" place to be, I just said that when others start hiring CAL may not be on the top of the list as far as legacies go. I also never once brought JBLU into the thread, but you CAL guys are almost as defensive as the JetBlue guys when bad things are said about CAL. I still stand by my original statement and intent that CAL will not be on the top of everyone's list when the other legacies are hiring and it will be because of the starting pay and no insurance. I don't see much negativity in stating that.

Hey man good luck at JetBlue.I ride them to work every now and then and they are really good to us.As far as negativity, looking at your over 300 posts on the XJT forum most are along the lines of negativeity and sarcasm what gives?..When I found out your true identity .I wasn't surprised..Again good luck at JBLU

 

[Truckdriver]

Hey man good luck at JetBlue.I ride them to work every now and then and they are really good to us.As far as negativity, looking at your over 300 posts on the XJT forum most are along the lines of negativeity and sarcasm what gives?..When I found out your true identity .I wasn't surprised..Again good luck at JBLU

Hey CALnTX how you been? Mostly sarcasm on the other board. I also find it interesting that if you post something that someone does not agree with, they always call it negative. My opinions may not be the same opinions as others, but I wouldn't call them negative. Again, I don't think I have ever said CAL is a bad place, I just think there are some "negative" things about the place. I guess the only solution to being liked on this place is to not post any of your opinions. It wouldn't be much fun if none of us posted our opinions would it??

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

CAL wouldn't be where it is today if it weren't for me.

"Continental. The house that Frank built."

I'll have a talk with management about that 6 months without health insurance and see if I can get it changed. I would like to see health insurance dropped altogether. Think about it. We both win. More money to the executive suite, and then you don't have to whine about how many months you have to go without health insurance.

Some day, you will see my genius.

Before I go, one request. Will someone say "Hi" to all of the scabs I hired that are still there?

My boys!

 

[TurboAWD]

Bottom line to me is, it doesn't matter how good a company CO is, or how good your career potential is there, 6 months w/o health ins is BS, and the union should have never allowed that in a TA. The pay rate is BS too, but unfortunately that is a bit of an industry std to screw newhires on pay. But pay AND health ins??? That's crap and it doesn't materially help the company bottom line. Frankly, anything less than 45/hr for first year pay at a major is crazy, and even that is low.

Turbo

 

[tie1on]

for those of you that are complaining about how bad the pay is, you must first look in the mirror for wanting to fly jets for a lower pay scale at a regional. Yes the union sucks, but whose does not. if the pay and benefits are so poor go find another profession.

for those of you who can pick which company more power to you. do your research before going to any company. it may or may not be your last.

 

[TurboAWD]

I didn't say the union sucked, just that that part of the agreement is just plain dumb.

As for the regional thing, well a big "Thank You" to CO ALPA for not selling out on the large RJ scope yet. Sorry everyone else blew that one.


P.S.: People don't generally "want to" fly jets for a regional at a lower payscale. And they wouldn't be doing it if the majors hadn't sold out on scope for near term (and as it turns out, short-term) gain.

Turbo

 

[seahorse]

I started the thread and I am a CAL pilot. I am not an Expressjet pilot and I never flew there.

This thread has nothing to do with Jetblue. I'm calling the shots how I see it. First of all, I have not been very impressed with many of the captains I fly with. Even if they are not scabs, they have a complete scab mentality. They don't give a shiit about any newhires (or really anyone else other than themselves). I do think that we have some better guys in the union now, trying to make things better.

For those of you who get on here and say that working for $29/hr first year and having no health insurance is "an investment", well you are full of shiit. It's the principle of it. It's an insult. And frankly, I'm offended (having been through it). I will 110% NOT vote in another contract in 2008 that allows this type of crap. I will also NOT vote for this B scale FO pay system they have. Does the issue of not having medical insurance or making $29/hr affect me if I'm a 4th or 5th year pilot when contract 2008 is being voted on? No, it does not. But why will I not tolerate something like this? Because it's bs.

 

[munson]

Does the issue of not having medical insurance or making $29/hr affect me if I'm a 4th or 5th year pilot when contract 2008 is being voted on? No, it does not. But why will I not tolerate something like this? Because it's bs.

I hope your right, and I hope that you stick with that plan. The problem is that everyone else is looking out for themselves. So when comes down to you making $2 more an hour, or giving the new guy a few bucks more and some insurance, most takes take the $2 more an hour because no one represents the new guy. I was on a flight the other day jumpseating and we got into a discussion about unions. The first officer was a big union guy and when I told him that we didnt get insurance for the first 6 months, he had no idea. Said he was gonna do something about it. Im holding my breath...dont think im gonna make it

 

[CA1900]

CAL wouldn't be where it is today if it weren't for me.

:laugh:

You crack me up...

 

[pkober]

I didn't say the union sucked, just that that part of the agreement is just plain dumb.

As for the regional thing, well a big "Thank You" to CO ALPA for not selling out on the large RJ scope yet. Sorry everyone else blew that one.


P.S.: People don't generally "want to" fly jets for a regional at a lower payscale. And they wouldn't be doing it if the majors hadn't sold out on scope for near term (and as it turns out, short-term) gain.

Turbo

They do it because it's a career advancer. Get the turbine time and move on. First year pay at CAL is hard, second year is much better. I'll be looking at upgrading, hopefully, in a few more years and then first year pay won't matter. I don't plan on being a junior f/o forever.

What we, ALPA national, need to do is set a standard minimum nationwide first year pay at all ALPA carriers. We need to start acting like a real united pilot group. The problem is that most senior guys forgot how hard first year pay is. They look at themselves now and say everyone else has to pay there "dues". Tough for a scab who has been a captain his entire career to ask some one else to pay his "dues" when he never has.

As far as insurance goes, CAL offers other insurance during the first six months which works out to be the same as the insurance you get after six months. That insurance thing is just a way for people to bi%ch about CAL.

SCOPE. The majors sold out by letting any flying ever go to some one other than mainline. That has cost many jobs over the years.

Good luck at your new job.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I hope your right, and I hope that you stick with that plan. The problem is that everyone else is looking out for themselves. So when comes down to you making $2 more an hour, or giving the new guy a few bucks more and some insurance, most takes take the $2 more an hour because no one represents the new guy. I was on a flight the other day jumpseating and we got into a discussion about unions. The first officer was a big union guy and when I told him that we didnt get insurance for the first 6 months, he had no idea. Said he was gonna do something about it. Im holding my breath...dont think im gonna make it

It IS possible to help everyone out on the seniority list - not just the senior guys. XJT's last contract in 2004 reduced the waiting period for new hire insurance benefits from 6 months to 3 months. Perfect? No. Is it a start? Yes. And the contract also improved retirement for the senior guys and got retro money for the guys who had already flowed back to CAL. I am cautiously optomistic that 2008 will be a better time for the CAL pilots.

-Neal

 

[TurboAWD]

What we, ALPA national, need to do is set a standard minimum nationwide first year pay at all ALPA carriers. We need to start acting like a real united pilot group. The problem is that most senior guys forgot how hard first year pay is. They look at themselves now and say everyone else has to pay there "dues". Tough for a scab who has been a captain his entire career to ask some one else to pay his "dues" when he never has.

As far as insurance goes, CAL offers other insurance during the first six months which works out to be the same as the insurance you get after six months. That insurance thing is just a way for people to bi%ch about CAL.

Absolutely right about national leadership. ALPA has become too much of a "states rights" organization. We need some more authority in the national organization.

As far as the alternative health ins. for the first 6 mo, can you elaborate a bit? Is it for purchase?

Thanks,
Turbo

 

[pkober]

It is for purchase. After six months CAL doesn't give free health insurance. You still pay. I pay what I did at the other airlines I have worked for in the past. I was lucky and had free military tricare during my first six months. On your first day at CAL they give you a list of other insurance providers. From the people I know who have used it, they say if was very affordable. High deductibles, but affordable. It's not like being left out in the cold.

It would be nice to have the insurance right away, but that is a union failure in that it wasn't negotiated for in past contracts. But if you're a scab you really don't care about the rest of the pilot group. But that's a different topic. Hopefully that and newhire pay will be addressed on 2008.

 

[JP4user]

But if you're a scab you really don't care about the rest of the pilot group. But that's a different topic. Hopefully that and newhire pay will be addressed on 2008.

Sounds to me like it was more than scabs that hosed your own over there. No scabs on the old NC. One scab on the old MEC. I don't think 58% of Continental pilots are scabs. So what is your excuse for the rest of the clowns that voted in your contract?

The continued destruction in this industry of all the legacy contracts is now being perpetrated from a woerthless and ineffectual union called ALPA. Until the membership forces real change in the way ALPA conducts business you will see rounds 3 and 4 coming for more paycuts.

Airline history has shown that no pilots anywhere give a damn about the junior guys. It is just the way pilots are and always have been.

 

[pkober]

Just because its always been that way doesn't mean some one can't change it. That's why we continue to have these problems.

As far as the last contract, I wasn't there at the time. Most people probably bought the union line and though the company would fold if they voted "no". I feel pretty confident that the new MEC will get vast improvements in 08.

The point on scabs is that all the ones I've flown with only care about one thing, #1. They will show you all the property they own and even tell you how much they make. If you try to change the converstion they will turn it back to them and there financial greatness. They are getting smaller in the pilot group, thank god. They are out numbered now.

Agreed on ALPA.

 

[SimHo]

I started the thread and I am a CAL pilot. I am not an Expressjet pilot and I never flew there.

This thread has nothing to do with Jetblue. I'm calling the shots how I see it. First of all, I have not been very impressed with many of the captains I fly with. Even if they are not scabs, they have a complete scab mentality. They don't give a shiit about any newhires (or really anyone else other than themselves). I do think that we have some better guys in the union now, trying to make things better.

For those of you who get on here and say that working for $29/hr first year and having no health insurance is "an investment", well you are full of shiit. It's the principle of it. It's an insult. And frankly, I'm offended (having been through it). I will 110% NOT vote in another contract in 2008 that allows this type of crap. I will also NOT vote for this B scale FO pay system they have. Does the issue of not having medical insurance or making $29/hr affect me if I'm a 4th or 5th year pilot when contract 2008 is being voted on? No, it does not. But why will I not tolerate something like this? Because it's bs.

AMEN
I am also a first year guy at CAL and have found the CAL captains, in general, to be afraid. Afraid of the chief pilots office, afraid of the FAA, afraid of other captains. I believe they all knew how bad they were screwing the new guys and voted for the contract anyway, again because they were just plain afraid
I too will not vote for a new contract that does not provide health insurance and decent pay the first year.

 

[TurboAWD]

AMEN
I too will not vote for a new contract that does not provide health insurance and decent pay the first year.

Guys that "get it". Thank You.

Hopefully, there are enough of you around as the legacy contracts become amendable.

Turbo

 

[Murphy]

There should only be two pay rates; Captain pay and FO pay. Also, if you are typed in a particular aircraft and want to go to another company that flies the same type, you shouldn't have to pay your dues at first year pay. You should be paid commensurate with your experience.

 

[FLY CONTINENTAL]

I hope your Captains have been impressed with you, if you have been one it can certainly work the other way. If you have problems with CA's you should be talking with Professional Standards or if it involves work rules the MEC. Working Together can be a play on words but chances are if you don't like your Captain there are egos involved which in the end can be a determent to safety because you are wanting that guy to screw up so you can prove him/her wrong. That isn't helping anyone. Suggest you get on board, be positive, and make a difference out there. Stop whining!

And while the history at CO is unique, how many bancruptcies have you worked through? Maybe a little history of the company might open your eyes to the past and a positive outlook on the future. We are all in this together.

I have had extremely positive experiences with CA's at CO. It's what you make of it---have fun and enjoy yourself. Hopefully you will be the Captain that everyone admirers.

 

[PastV1]

There should only be two pay rates; Captain pay and FO pay. Also, if you are typed in a particular aircraft and want to go to another company that flies the same type, you shouldn't have to pay your dues at first year pay. You should be paid commensurate with your experience.

There are only 2 pay rates. Unless it's a 3 holer then there are 3 pay rates.

Past....

 

[seahorse]

I hope your Captains have been impressed with you, if you have been one it can certainly work the other way. If you have problems with CA's you should be talking with Professional Standards

Yeah, talk to Professional Standards about some weird anti-social captain who refuses to talk or say anything on a 6 hour transcon.

And some were not impressed and thought that I should "pay my dues" because I complained about 1st year pay, and 2nd, and 3rd, and no insurance, and bad work rules, etc, etc, etc.

 

[SOVT]

"because I complained about 1st year pay, and 2nd, and 3rd, and no insurance, and bad work rules, etc, etc, etc."

I've been at CO for over a year now and with one exception have had a nice to great time with every Captain that I've flown with. I think that the above quote is telling, if you start a trip complaining, you've set yourself up for a lousy time. Assuming that your listed flight time is correct, you have not been around long enough to have experienced the pain that this industry can hand out. Perhaps you need to remember that the guy sitting next to you probably has been thru multiple bankruptcies, corporate transactions, concessionary contracts, furloughs....

I start each trip out with a positive attitude, don’t complain about my personal issues, and get the job done. It pays off, as was evidenced two nights ago when the Capt. bought dinner for four of us in BFS. When I thanked him for buying dinner his response was that he really enjoyed flying with people with great attitudes.

So, if you want to fight the injustice of the first year compensation package I suggest that you stop your complaining and work to put yourself into a position to fix it.

 

[twad]

my 2 cents

I find it difficult to understand how people know going in what the job pays, it's benefits, or lack there of and still accept the offer of employment then get on line and complain about it.

My personal experience has been very positive. Captains buy dinner and drinks almost regularly(not that I would expect them to). First year pay is low. No doubt about it, but I KNEW this going in. Like they say in the schoolhouse, Garbage in, Garbage out holds true with attitudes in the cockpit.

Cal has a lot of promise and remember we are in a concessionary contract, hopefully, contract 08 will only improve things.