F9 FAPA AIP / Ostriches

[FlyingFarmer]

Holy Toledo!

The more I hear from you guys the more I can't believe it. I guess my question to FAPA and the F9 pilots is pretty simple.

Is getting a pension, a Captain pay freeze, and no change to FO pay (this in order to get the FO's to vote yes, I'd wager) worth giving the company a bargaining tool to use against them later on down the road, worth it?

That's like handing the mafia guy the shovel that he's about to hit you over the head with. "Oh yeah Don Carlone', thank you for this envelope of money, would you like me to hand you this shovel out of the back of your cadillac?"

I see that one more history lesson is still needed. Perhaps your MEC chair has already forgotten, or has been convinced to forget, what happened at AA and DAL. The only thing that will protect the pilots of F9 when times get rough is the threat of increased training costs to the company when the furloughs come, and they will come, they always do, in addition to this, a stipulation would have to be added that said;

should F9 mainline ever furlough, no subsidiary, associated holding company, or feeder airline shall not be allowed to grow, or take on any additional flying of any kind.

So this begs two questions, one, why even give the company the latitiude to operate a second list, you are just handing them a shovel, now if Lynx were to be turboprop only, with a growth sized ratio, then fine, I'll shut my trap, in my mind, that COULD work. As far as question two, what's the big deal? It's only a few dash 8's right?

The bottom line is this. Horizon is taking their planes and going home.
Lynx is not being created to just run dash 8's. How many 70-80-90 seats jets will they get? And at the NEXT contract, how many more will the company want to operate? I can hear it now. Well pilots, times are hard. You either have to give up the pension and pay raises, or we HAVE to operate the 318's. Of course we can give you pilots IRON CLAD FURLOUGH PROTECTION, that will work!!!!

HA!! just ask the AA and DAL guys about furlough protection and force majeuure (spelling?) The DAL pilots got big fat raises to give up scope. The AA pilots got raises and furlough protection as well, even a nifty flowback provision, but in order for a provision such as this to work, Eagle or any subsidiary/feeder for AMR should have been prohibited from growing when mainline was furloughing. But there's that pesky force majore again. The company cries poor, they go buy off a judge, or a few union guys, and soon enough, the company gains the ability to shrink mainline and grow the lowest bidder. In F9's case, the lowest bidder is lynx, and the union is actually GIVING the company the shovel to be at some point used against them, if not at this contract, then the next.

Quick Frontier pilots, take the envelope of money and run with it as fast as you can, and don't worry about the shovel you're MEC just gave to your CEO. HE would never use it against you, RIGHT?

You know, some bright boy awhile back asked, So what do you care? It's this simple, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We don't live in a vacuumn, what happens at one carrier affects another. If this goes through, how long until Neeleman gets the bright idea to spin off the 190's to someone that will work cheaper? Nah, he'd never do that, RIGHT?

 

[NTS ALL 4]

......bump?

Who the **** are you?

 

[FLYCSA!]

Someone help me out, what does AIP mean?

 

[AnimalTale]

Holy Toledo!

The more I hear from you guys the more I can't believe it. I guess my question to FAPA and the F9 pilots is pretty simple.

Is getting a pension, a Captain pay freeze, and no change to FO pay (this in order to get the FO's to vote yes, I'd wager) worth giving the company a bargaining tool to use against them later on down the road, worth it?

That's like handing the mafia guy the shovel that he's about to hit you over the head with. "Oh yeah Don Carlone', thank you for this envelope of money, would you like me to hand you this shovel out of the back of your cadillac?"

I see that one more history lesson is still needed. Perhaps your MEC chair has already forgotten, or has been convinced to forget, what happened at AA and DAL. The only thing that will protect the pilots of F9 when times get rough is the threat of increased training costs to the company when the furloughs come, and they will come, they always do, in addition to this, a stipulation would have to be added that said;

should F9 mainline ever furlough, no subsidiary, associated holding company, or feeder airline shall not be allowed to grow, or take on any additional flying of any kind.

So this begs two questions, one, why even give the company the latitiude to operate a second list, you are just handing them a shovel, now if Lynx were to be turboprop only, with a growth sized ratio, then fine, I'll shut my trap, in my mind, that COULD work. As far as question two, what's the big deal? It's only a few dash 8's right?

The bottom line is this. Horizon is taking their planes and going home.
Lynx is not being created to just run dash 8's. How many 70-80-90 seats jets will they get? And at the NEXT contract, how many more will the company want to operate? I can hear it now. Well pilots, times are hard. You either have to give up the pension and pay raises, or we HAVE to operate the 318's. Of course we can give you pilots IRON CLAD FURLOUGH PROTECTION, that will work!!!!

HA!! just ask the AA and DAL guys about furlough protection and force majeuure (spelling?) The DAL pilots got big fat raises to give up scope. The AA pilots got raises and furlough protection as well, even a nifty flowback provision, but in order for a provision such as this to work, Eagle or any subsidiary/feeder for AMR should have been prohibited from growing when mainline was furloughing. But there's that pesky force majore again. The company cries poor, they go buy off a judge, or a few union guys, and soon enough, the company gains the ability to shrink mainline and grow the lowest bidder. In F9's case, the lowest bidder is lynx, and the union is actually GIVING the company the shovel to be at some point used against them, if not at this contract, then the next.

Quick Frontier pilots, take the envelope of money and run with it as fast as you can, and don't worry about the shovel you're MEC just gave to your CEO. HE would never use it against you, RIGHT?

You know, some bright boy awhile back asked, So what do you care? It's this simple, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. We don't live in a vacuumn, what happens at one carrier affects another. If this goes through, how long until Neeleman gets the bright idea to spin off the 190's to someone that will work cheaper? Nah, he'd never do that, RIGHT?

Am I missing something,

Why are YOU so concerned about F9, do u work here? If not worry about your own airline, we will worry about ours.

Why do u care or get sooo emotional about what little old Frontier does? If you are truly concerned and care, I appreciate it. If you are trying to get a rise or "spread" panic and propaganda, GET LOST!!


Cya

 

[FlyingFarmer]

ok, moron, first off, aip is Agreement In Principle.

Next, Animal Tale, you need to read the end of my post, I figured you'd surface and open your blowhole. I am concerned about what happens at ANY airline, just like many of your pilots were concerned about transcon turns. If you're not smart enough to understand how what happens at one airline affects us all, I'm through talking to you, your just one more stupid pilot that's part of the problem. One more thing, I am in no way emotional. I've read many of your posts, on several occasions you've told people that you have disagreements with that they are "so emotional". People who accuse others of having some defect often possess that exact defect. I wonder if you're still married, do you tell your wife that? If so, she must want you out of the house working overtime as much as possible.

Also Animal Tale, rather than telling other pilots that are offering advice regarding things you can't comprehend to buzz -off, the check-A's must love you, perhaps you should point your dolphin brain at what will happen at F9 if your TA is ratified. This has all happened at other airlines before. Who is your MEC chair, and where has he been for the past ten years? It appears to many that he needs to get his head out of
the sand and examine the past in order to
see what the future of Frontier and FAPA might hold. Giving management one more way to potentially screw you is never a good idea. Best of luck to you and to your future, or lack thereof.

 

[AnimalTale]

ok, moron, first off, aip is Agreement In Principle.

Next, Animal Tale, you need to read the end of my post, I figured you'd surface and open your blowhole. I am concerned about what happens at ANY airline, just like many of your pilots were concerned about transcon turns. If you're not smart enough to understand how what happens at one airline affects us all, I'm through talking to you, your just one more stupid pilot that's part of the problem. One more thing, I am in no way emotional. I've read many of your posts, on several occasions you've told people that you have disagreements with that they are "so emotional". People who accuse others of having some defect often possess that exact defect. I wonder if you're still married, do you tell your wife that? If so, she must want you out of the house working overtime as much as possible.

Also Animal Tale, rather than telling other pilots that are offering advice regarding things you can't comprehend to buzz -off, the check-A's must love you, perhaps you should point your dolphin brain at what will happen at F9 if your TA is ratified. This has all happened at other airlines before. Who is your MEC chair, and where has he been for the past ten years? It appears to many that he needs to get his head out of
the sand and examine the past in order to
see what the future of Frontier and FAPA might hold. Giving management one more way to potentially screw you is never a good idea. Best of luck to you and to your future, or lack thereof.

Like I said, DONT BE SO EMOTIONAL AND MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS.
I never once attacked you. I just told you to mind your own Biz.

Only if you knew!!

Cya

Chill out. We will be fine at F9. And if we are not, then you can go celebrate our failure. Your posts seem like you are a pessimistic, jealous, nosey and "TOOL" of a pilot.

 

[Lear70]

Ummm... none of my business either EXCEPT he made a couple statements that are irrefutable:

1. We don't live in a vacuum - what happens at one carrier affects the rest of us.

2. What happened at other carriers once Scope was given up has NEVER been positive or pretty.

That said, if you give your Scope away, I personally don't care how it affects you EXCEPT it becomes something OUR management throws in our face: "See, F9 did it, why don't you?" Additionally, it's looked at during mediation as well as a comparative basis.

ALPA learned a long time ago that giving up Scope was the worst mistake ever made. Are you guys really going to make it again?

Yeah, you can tell me to mind my own business as well, that's fine, I'll just keep asking until SOMEONE can explain to me WTF as, in a round-about way (as pointed out in (1) above), it IS my business. If your contract affects OUR negotiations, then it affects me.

 

[aussiefly]

Ummm... none of my business either EXCEPT he made a couple statements that are irrefutable:

1. We don't live in a vacuum - what happens at one carrier affects the rest of us.

2. What happened at other carriers once Scope was given up has NEVER been positive or pretty.

That said, if you give your Scope away, I personally don't care how it affects you EXCEPT it becomes something OUR management throws in our face: "See, F9 did it, why don't you?" Additionally, it's looked at during mediation as well as a comparative basis.

ALPA learned a long time ago that giving up Scope was the worst mistake ever made. Are you guys really going to make it again?

Yeah, you can tell me to mind my own business as well, that's fine, I'll just keep asking until SOMEONE can explain to me WTF as, in a round-about way (as pointed out in (1) above), it IS my business. If your contract affects OUR negotiations, then it affects me.

Great Post Lear

 

[crashpad]

That's like handing the mafia guy the shovel that he's about to hit you over the head with. "Oh yeah Don Carlone', thank you for this envelope of money, would you like me to hand you this shovel out of the back of your cadillac?"

"Hey Luca, why don't you pay the Turk a visit and find out what the F9 pilots think?"

I'll save you the trouble. The majority are saying they won't vote for any contract which doesn't address scope and one seniority list with Lynx.

 

[starchkr]

Ummm FlyingFarmer...there is a growth sized ratio in the contract, and there will also be a seat size limitation for Lynx.(not sure about the turboprop only part though)

 

[AnimalTale]

Ummm... none of my business either EXCEPT he made a couple statements that are irrefutable:

1. We don't live in a vacuum - what happens at one carrier affects the rest of us.

2. What happened at other carriers once Scope was given up has NEVER been positive or pretty.

That said, if you give your Scope away, I personally don't care how it affects you EXCEPT it becomes something OUR management throws in our face: "See, F9 did it, why don't you?" Additionally, it's looked at during mediation as well as a comparative basis.

ALPA learned a long time ago that giving up Scope was the worst mistake ever made. Are you guys really going to make it again?

Yeah, you can tell me to mind my own business as well, that's fine, I'll just keep asking until SOMEONE can explain to me WTF as, in a round-about way (as pointed out in (1) above), it IS my business. If your contract affects OUR negotiations, then it affects me.

Dont worry ALPA has damaged their Airlines beyond belief. And as far as SCOPE goes; WHAT SCOPE! The industry has already given SCOPE up way before "little old Frontier" is "flirting" with it.

I agree with you LEAR, We all should BACK EACH OTHER UP, rather than point fingers and blame. Also, we all should be supportive of each other rather than back stab and ridicule other airlines and pilot groups. (ie SWA kicks
A$$ in this industry and some pilots Blast them, WHY?)

I have been an ALPO member at 5 different airlines. I can tell u, FAPA at F9 is 10 times better than any ALPA group I have been (they arent perfect). As far as ALPA national don get me started!

IMHO, our so called "MEC" chairman is a standup guy who will fight for the BEST interest of the majority (pilot group).

Cya

 

[regionaltard]

Ummm FlyingFarmer...there is a growth sized ratio in the contract, and there will also be a seat size limitation for Lynx.(not sure about the turboprop only part though)

Hey, that worked great for Delta..........

 

[Lear70]

Dont worry ALPA has damaged their Airlines beyond belief. And as far as SCOPE goes; WHAT SCOPE! The industry has already given SCOPE up way before "little old Frontier" is "flirting" with it.

I agree with you LEAR, We all should BACK EACH OTHER UP, rather than point fingers and blame. Also, we all should be supportive of each other rather than back stab and ridicule other airlines and pilot groups. (ie SWA kicks
A$$ in this industry and some pilots Blast them, WHY?)

I have been an ALPO member at 5 different airlines. I can tell u, FAPA at F9 is 10 times better than any ALPA group I have been (they arent perfect). As far as ALPA national don get me started!

IMHO, our so called "MEC" chairman is a standup guy who will fight for the BEST interest of the majority (pilot group).

Cya

I hope so, I've never met your MEC chair and have only had great experiences with your pilots (out of my kneck of the woods so I only run across them on overnights sometimes), so I wish you guys all the best.

I agree about in-house unions vs. ALPA as well, although management intent isn't as bad here as PCL was so I haven't had as many problems. Unions in general have a hard time enough with the RLA and arbitrators without throwing conflict of interests and a bunch of other probles that ALPA has into the mix.

Crashpad, that's great stuff... glad to hear the majority can see this one coming!

Good luck to ya' (to all of us for that matter)!