Dhl

[Scarabus]

Does anyone know the process for getting on at DHL? I checked out their web site and could not find any info for pilots. Thanks

 

[erichartmann]

Job info for DHL

DHL Americas doesn't employ pilots. The freight is hauled by ACMI carriers becasue DHL is a foreign based corporation and cannot own a U.S. air carrier. The 2 largest are ABX Air, and Astar Air Cargo. ABX is not currently hiring. I don't know about Astar.

 

[frmrBUFFdrvr]

The planes in DHL colors are Astar.

 

[erichartmann]

The planes in DHL colors are Astar.

Nope!

ABX has at least as many if not more aircraft painted in DHL colors as Astar.

ABX operates DC-9's DC-8-63's and B767-200's. Astar operates 727's A-300's and DC-8-70's.

All of Astars roughly 40 aircraft fleet is in DHL livery with the exception of 1 DC-8 (I think). Not all of ABX's aircraft are. Some are still painted in the old Airborne Express livery, a few in the new ABX livery and the rest in DHL colors. I'm not sure what the exact breakdown is.

 

[frmrBUFFdrvr]

I stand corrected.:blush:

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

Nope!

ABX has at least as many if not more aircraft painted in DHL colors as Astar.

ABX operates DC-9's DC-8-63's and B767-200's. Astar operates 727's A-300's and DC-8-70's.

All of Astars roughly 40 aircraft fleet is in DHL livery with the exception of 1 DC-8 (I think). Not all of ABX's aircraft are. Some are still painted in the old Airborne Express livery, a few in the new ABX livery and the rest in DHL colors. I'm not sure what the exact breakdown is.

I'm so confused :erm:

 

[mcjohn]

Interesting. I just hung out with a guy at a cookout who said he flys for DHL. He didn't mention those other companies and said he's over seas a lot. He said he's flown for DHL for 14 years.

 

[cheyflyer]

Interesting. I just hung out with a guy at a cookout who said he flys for DHL. He didn't mention those other companies and said he's over seas a lot. He said he's flown for DHL for 14 years.

Sometimes its just easier that way. Eliminates a lot of explaining.

 

[LarryinTN]

Interesting. I just hung out with a guy at a cookout who said he flys for DHL. He didn't mention those other companies and said he's over seas a lot. He said he's flown for DHL for 14 years.

Probably an Astar guy. They were "DHL Airways" prior to being spun off and renamed Astar.

 

[2LT]

Job links...

ABX: https://www.abxair.com/flightweb/unsecured_pages/pilot_hiring.htm

Astar: http://www.astaraircargo.us/about/careers.html

 

[erichartmann]

Interesting. I just hung out with a guy at a cookout who said he flys for DHL. He didn't mention those other companies and said he's over seas a lot. He said he's flown for DHL for 14 years.

A lot of the Astar guys don't seem to have fully realized or accepted the fact that they are now an ACMI carrier and no longer work for DHL directly. I had one on my jump seat a while back who said "my jet says DHL on the side, I'm hauling DHL freight, my callsign is DHL, the only thing different is the name on the paycheck". Duh!!!

ABX Air was the wholly owned subsidary of Airborne prior to Airborne selling itself to DHL. Since DHL cannot own a U.S. aircarrier we were spun off, just as was DHL Airways when DHL, formally a U.S. based corporation, became a foreign based corporation. The name (DHL Airways) was subsequently changed to Astar Air Cargo when John Dasburg and his investment partners bought the company. DHL is now wholly owned by Deutshe Post, the German post office.

 

[UM#1]

A lot of the Astar guys don't seem to have fully realized or accepted the fact that they are now an ACMI carrier and no longer work for DHL directly. I had one on my jump seat a while back who said "my jet says DHL on the side, I'm hauling DHL freight, my callsign is DHL, the only thing different is the name on the paycheck". Duh!!!

Eric,
Well Im not sure what his intentions were by saying that since you left out the rest of the conversation you had with him, but it's not that Astar pilots think we are still employeed by DHL directly it's the fact that DHL runs the show at Astar. Granted we are an ACMI by definition but DHL is our one and only customer.Our management is somewhat a filter for DHL to tell us what and when to do something. As a pilot group we have realized this and we are even dealing with DHL directly. Especially on the scope side with the recent ruling that DHL violated our scope. But besides that our Management has an advantage in dealing with DHL since we are a private company. Nothing has to be reported in press releases or the like. The plain fact is we wouldn't be around if DHL decided not to give us business. We don't do any charter or non-dhl flying like you guys do.

 

[AV8OR]

For cryin out loud. Here we go again.

The guy you were talking to was AStar. How do I know? If he's flyin overseas, that's us. The fact of the matter it is easier to just tell folks you fly for DHL, and...it's true. DHL even signed our contract. If an ABX guy say's they fly for DHL it's true as well. No problem. I'll tell ya who we DON'T fly for .....Airborne Express. Sadly, Airborne Express is no more.

As for the AStar guy mouthing off on the JS....totally unacceptable. I can honestly say that I have experienced only courteous professionalism on our JS's from ABX folks and I'm sorry you had to listen to that jacka$$.

If you want to fly for DHL, apply to both and see what happens. Hopefully you'll be good either way.

 

[erichartmann]

Eric,
Well Im not sure what his intentions were by saying that since you left out the rest of the conversation you had with him, but it's not that Astar pilots think we are still employeed by DHL directly it's the fact that DHL runs the show at Astar. Granted we are an ACMI by definition but DHL is our one and only customer.Our management is somewhat a filter for DHL to tell us what and when to do something. As a pilot group we have realized this and we are even dealing with DHL directly. Especially on the scope side with the recent ruling that DHL violated our scope. But besides that our Management has an advantage in dealing with DHL since we are a private company. Nothing has to be reported in press releases or the like. The plain fact is we wouldn't be around if DHL decided not to give us business. We don't do any charter or non-dhl flying like you guys do.

The conversation was about hauling freight for DHL and being an ACMI carrier for them. The gist of his remarks was summed up by that one statement. I was struck by the fact that he seemed unwilling or unable to acknowledge that from a legal standpoint his employer was Astar, not DHL.

Although our non-DHL flying figures prominantly in our financial results it is a small portion of our actual flying. I'm not sure the airline would survive without the DHL business, at least for now. ABX management is intent on making the company less dependant on DHL for it's survival. Personally I have somewhat mixed emotions about this course of action. On the one hand I think it very good idea. On the other, I rather suspect it annoys the Germans.

 

[erichartmann]

For cryin out loud. Here we go again.

The guy you were talking to was AStar. How do I know? If he's flyin overseas, that's us. The fact of the matter it is easier to just tell folks you fly for DHL, and...it's true. DHL even signed our contract. If an ABX guy say's they fly for DHL it's true as well. No problem. I'll tell ya who we DON'T fly for .....Airborne Express. Sadly, Airborne Express is no more.

As for the AStar guy mouthing off on the JS....totally unacceptable. I can honestly say that I have experienced only courteous professionalism on our JS's from ABX folks and I'm sorry you had to listen to that jacka$$.

If you want to fly for DHL, apply to both and see what happens. Hopefully you'll be good either way.

Actually the conversation was cordial. I was simply struck by his "I work for DHL attitude" that ignored the legal reality.

I, in response to the "who do you fly for?" question, generally reply, "It's actually a bit more complicated than this, but the short answer is DHL." If they want to know more, they ask. If not, that portion of the conversation is over.

Sorry to be so pendantic about the situation, but I believe the legal realities are important. Neither of the two largest carriers operating in the U.S. for DHL are actually DHL. Both are ACMI carriers. Both management teams, to one degree or another, get their marching orders from DHL (i.e. what cities we fly to etc.).

As AV8OR says, take your pick. ABX is not currently hiring. That said, my personal reading of the tea leaves suggests that will change in the near future, perhaps late this year or sometime next year. We recently aquired 12 Delta 767's which are in the process of being modified to freighters. Some of them are already on line. Once all of them are on line we will be operating 37 767's, around 55 - 60 DC-9's and a few DC-8's. Rumors abound about additional purchases. The company is actively looking, but I don't know if any deals have been made. I am fairly sure more will be coming, but the bottleneck will the be conversion process. There are only 3 shops doing them, and it takes about 60 days per airframe.

 

[UM#1]

The conversation was about hauling freight for DHL and being an ACMI carrier for them. The gist of his remarks was summed up by that one statement. I was struck by the fact that he seemed unwilling or unable to acknowledge that from a legal standpoint his employer was Astar, not DHL.

Well fwiw he needs to wake up and smell the roses or maybe the crap on the roses, either way it doesn't represent the thoughts of the rest of the pilot group. good luck to us all...

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

The conversation was about hauling freight for DHL and being an ACMI carrier for them... I was struck by the fact that he seemed unwilling or unable to acknowledge that from a legal standpoint his employer was Astar, not DHL.

If he was an ASTAR pilot, the indisputable fact is that he IS flying DHL airplanes, freight, schedules, and using DHL a call sign. As a legal matter, it may be ASTAR that's signing his paychecks, but he's working for DHL, plain and simple.

Obviously, the same applies to our brothers at ABX. We're ALL working for "Da Man."

As for the legal situation, there may be some hope on the distant horizon. The NLRB recently ruled against FedEx and their use of so-called "independent truckers" in their ground-haul operations. There are some clear parallels between those operations and DHL's use of "independent airlines" in transporting freight. Obviously, we're still operating in a very gray area here. We're "employees" when it suits them, "independent contractors" when it doesn't. DHL is doing a very effective job of exploiting the void between the rules regarding foreign ownership of domestic airlines and established labor law. We need to be equally effective in seeking interpretations of those laws in our favor.

These are just a few of the things that the pilots of both groups should be highly concerned with. Who signs your jumpseaters paycheck or the logo on his tie tack needn't be one of them.

 

[Clipperskip]

We're "employees" when it suits them, "independent contractors" when it doesn't. DHL is doing a very effective job of exploiting the void between the rules regarding foreign ownership of domestic airlines and established labor law. We need to be equally effective in seeking interpretations of those laws in our favor.

These are just a few of the things that the pilots of both groups should be highly concerned with. Who signs your jumpseaters paycheck or the logo on his tie tack needn't be one of them.[/quote]

Dear Dan,

Can you give me an example when you felt DHL treated you, or Astar as an employee since the integration? From the ABX side of the fence I haven't seen anything that would make me feel that way. DHL has definitely made numerous requests of ABX and Astar (schedule changes ad naseum) which they seem happy to oblige but at no time did I ever feel that I was an employee, in fact, just the opposite! Additionally, why do you feel that I should be concerned by who signs my jumpseater's paycheck? It seems you have a different perspective on this situation and I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Feel free to PM me if you need. Thanks

 

[erichartmann]

If he was an ASTAR pilot, the indisputable fact is that he IS flying DHL airplanes, freight, schedules, and using DHL a call sign. As a legal matter, it may be ASTAR that's signing his paychecks, but he's working for DHL, plain and simple.

Obviously, the same applies to our brothers at ABX. We're ALL working for "Da Man."

As for the legal situation, there may be some hope on the distant horizon. The NLRB recently ruled against FedEx and their use of so-called "independent truckers" in their ground-haul operations. There are some clear parallels between those operations and DHL's use of "independent airlines" in transporting freight. Obviously, we're still operating in a very gray area here. We're "employees" when it suits them, "independent contractors" when it doesn't. DHL is doing a very effective job of exploiting the void between the rules regarding foreign ownership of domestic airlines and established labor law. We need to be equally effective in seeking interpretations of those laws in our favor.

These are just a few of the things that the pilots of both groups should be highly concerned with. Who signs your jumpseaters paycheck or the logo on his tie tack needn't be one of them.

As you point out there is an apparent disconect between labor law and the law governing foreign ownership of U.S. airlines. Since it is fairly clear at this point that congress is not willing to back off on the foreign ownership issue I would suspect the labor law will not be applied to us. Either congress will pass a new statute amending one law or the other, or some smart hairsplitter with a law degree will come up with an arguement that will do the job.

I'm not particularly concerned with who signed my J/S's paycheck or what his tie tack says (or doesn't say); I was simply struck by what he said, how he said it, and the way in which he summed it up. In short, I found his outlook astonishing. Perspective I guess. From my POV we are none of us in Kansas any more.

 

[shooter]

.... DHL has definitely made numerous requests of ABX and Astar (schedule changes ad naseum) which they seem happy to oblige .....

I agree with your post. The plain, simple truth is that the only DHL airline is in Brussels. Astar and ABX are given DHL work just like Northwest and Lufthansa that operate into KILN. And since DHL is their customer all efforts should be made to accomodate the customer or DHL can just look for another to provide the work they need like any of the other ACMI carriers out there.

How many times are you going to take crap from a plumber before you just say screw it and go find another plumber? DHL is the customer, period. You can do everything you can to keep them happy and they keep giving you work or you give them a hard time and they say screw it, we'll find uplift elsewhere.

Sounds like Astar wants ABX to "team up" on DHL to put pressure on them. Do you really thing DHL gives a hoot? really? If anything is a threat I think it would be that if open skies becomes a reality, ABX and Astar will both be out of jobs since it would be legal for DHL's own airline to operate point to point within the U.S. and do it cheaper. Seems like teaming up on Congress is the path to what should be the goal.

 

[freightdogfred]

Sounds like Astar wants ABX to "team up" on DHL to put pressure on them. Do you really thing DHL gives a hoot? really? If anything is a threat I think it would be that if open skies becomes a reality, ABX and Astar will both be out of jobs since it would be legal for DHL's own airline to operate point to point within the U.S. and do it cheaper. Seems like teaming up on Congress is the path to what should be the goal.

That's exactly what they need to do, sooner than later...As tough as it may be for the individual pilot, allowing the "Customer" (DHL) to pit one group against the other will eventually lead to the demise of both, as each group fights for table scraps thrown to them by DHL. This scenario is right out of EWW's playbook up the road in DAY, where it was about six contractors lowballing the bid to secure a contract. In the end the only real winner is DHL. While they can, they need to get their groups together to FORCE a scope clause on DHL now, while they are strong, and before DHL can start securing other lift. The only card they have in their hand is time. DHL can't replace all that lift in a month or two. A year or two it may be a different story.

 

[goastar]

"DHL's own airline to operate point to point within the U.S. and do it cheaper."

My bet is on the mexicans from El Crapo, with the support of FEMA, before its DHLs own airline.

 

[big_al]

doesnt DHL do the same thing in Europe? They have European Air Transport do their flying, but with British and Belgium registered aircraft

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Can you give me an example when you felt DHL treated you, or Astar as an employee since the integration? From the ABX side of the fence I haven't seen anything that would make me feel that way. DHL has definitely made numerous requests of ABX and Astar (schedule changes ad naseum) which they seem happy to oblige but at no time did I ever feel that I was an employee, in fact, just the opposite!

Every time they change your schedule, add or drop a stop, or ask that a different type of equipment be substituted, they're acting like an employer, because that's what employers do...they tell you what to do, and (more often than not), how to do it. In fact, that's one of several tests the IRS uses to determine whether an individual is an employee or a private contractor. Basically, when a company ASKS another company to do something, they're a customer. When they TELL another company to do something, they're an employer.

We're a little of both...neither fish nor foul, cock nor bull. "Flying Hermaphrodites," if you will.

Additionally, why do you feel that I should be concerned by who signs my jumpseater's paycheck?... I am trying to understand where you are coming from. Feel free to PM me if you need. Thanks

I don't feel we need to...that was my point. ASTAR could change their name back to "Drugs, Handguns and Liquor Airways" and ABX to "We Don't Need No Stinkin' Cargo Door! Global Logistics" and we'd all be doing the same job, on the same schedule, every night. I.E., Flying yellow airplanes full of yellow freight on "Yellow's" schedules.

The employer/contractor model that DHL uses in most of the world puts our jobs and any hope for long-term prosperity in jeopardy. It is that model that we should be concerned with, not what some guy on a jumpseat says (or doesn't say) about who owns certificate he operates under.

 

[Bitter]

Scope

The employer/contractor model that DHL uses in most of the world puts our jobs and any hope for long-term prosperity in jeopardy. It is that model that we should be concerned with, not what some guy on a jumpseat says (or doesn't say) about who owns certificate he operates under.

Could not agree more.........But how with scope, do we tie ourselves (Abx and Astar) to freight that is not reallly ours? It is DHL's freight, how do we force them to contract with us and no one else?

I agree it needs to be done, I am just lost as how to do it.

Thoughs?

 

[shooter]

That's exactly what they need to do, sooner than later...As tough as it may be for the individual pilot, allowing the "Customer" (DHL) to pit one group against the other will eventually lead to the demise of both, as each group fights for table scraps thrown to them by DHL. This scenario is right out of EWW's playbook up the road in DAY, where it was about six contractors lowballing the bid to secure a contract. In the end the only real winner is DHL. While they can, they need to get their groups together to FORCE a scope clause on DHL now, while they are strong, and before DHL can start securing other lift. The only card they have in their hand is time. DHL can't replace all that lift in a month or two. A year or two it may be a different story.

also, keep in mind that DHL is in the express business. It was possible to get the scum-bag bids in DAY because they were not tied to performance.

p.s. lovin' the fun bag avitar

 

[Bitter]

also, keep in mind that DHL is in the express business. It was possible to get the scum-bag bids in DAY because they were not tied to performance.

I am not convinced yet that they (DHL) completely get the Express concept in the US. They seem determined to learn the hard way.

Loosing roughly 50% of your express business, in 3 months takes some german ingenuity!!(sp?)

They have not impressed me yet......I believe they are just smart enough to have a corrosion corner in KILN......!!

 

[erichartmann]

I don't know how one goes about tying DHL to our respective companies. I am under the impression it cannot be done under U.S. law so long as DHL does not own any portion of either company, and it may require controlling interest, which is for now prohibited under U.S. law.

At this point all we can do is make ourselves:

1) indespensible by - providing a quality service. This presumes they understand the nature of the U.S. market. There are some hopeful signs in this area.

2) independent - we need to have enough outside business to survive if DHL decides to go with a less reliable cheaper operator.

 

[GoABX]

The other way of making oneself indespensible is through "size" and "mutual assured destruction". Presently DHL cannot move the freight without ABX. Due to our size, even forgetting the reliability factor, we could not be replaced overnight with a slew of third tier carriers. So to survive we (Hete) must not allow a slow migration to other parties. We would have to have the stones to play the 'All or None' game of cat and mouse. Granted you don't want to pi$$ off you only customer, but if he gives you the choice of cutting of your fingers all at once or one at a time...does it really matter that he gave you a choice?

If there were 4 carriers each with 25% then the throat cutting would commence and there would be no turning back for anyone.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Could not agree more.........But how with scope, do we tie ourselves (Abx and Astar) to freight that is not reallly ours? It is DHL's freight, how do we force them to contract with us and no one else?

I'm not sure that it can be done, unless there's some way of forcing them to designate an "agent" of sorts, to handle their intra-U.S. shipping requirements.

DHL still has an advantage in many foreign markets. It may be that at some point, they (DHL) will enter into an agreement with either UPS or FedEx whereby they focus primarily on deliveries in foreign countries, while their partner emphasizes service here. A DHL/UPS alliance could make further penetration into foreign markets very difficult for our friends in Memphis. Likewise, a collaboration between FedEx and DHL. Of course, either one would likely make ASTAR and ABX redundant.

There are currently three players in the international express business. Each can be identified by a different aspect of how they conduct their business. FedEx seems to put a great deal of focus on their employees, paying them well for doing whatever is necessary to see that their customers needs are met. UPS puts the emphasis on service, holding their employees to a very high standard of performance, for which they too are well-compensated. DHL puts their emphasis on employee cost, apparently in the belief that paying less money to them somehow translates into making their service more attractive to their customers.

With DHL's substantial losses in the U.S. (both financial and in market-share), I think it's becoming obvious which strategies work, and which ones do not.