Wow!

[Ready2Fly]

 

[ex j-41]

What a deal!

So let me get this straight....

No Salary is that correct.....Yes
You have to come up with $3500 for training correct? Yes but refundable.
You have to work for 1 year free of charge or 800 hrs in order
to get that refund? .............Yes.




How does someone pay for rent? Food? Car? Gas? During that year?......
What tf is this world coming to?

I did a search on Google.com to find a phone number so i couldn't resist
calling and finding out about the position...The woman i spoke to said
she was not aware of a non-paying pilot position. And seemed like it must
be in some error. I said the ad was very specific in that it was :"No Salary".

Best thing we can do is all call them and tell them what we think of their
"Free Labor" offer. At least the mexicans get paid to work!

 

[T-Storm Chaser]

So let me get this straight....

No Salary is that correct.....Yes
You have to come up with $3500 for training correct? Yes but refundable.
You have to work for 1 year free of charge or 800 hrs in order
to get that refund? .............Yes.


How does someone pay for rent? Food? Car? Gas? During that year?......
What tf is this world coming to?

Yep. but the sad thing is that there are probably people e-mailing this company with their resume right now for the chance to get "turbine time". Sometimes this industry makes me sick. Reminds me of those Gulfstream International guys that pay $10,000 to sit right seat in a Beech 1900. What a crock. The managment for these companies should be drawn, quartered, and shot.

 

[captain caveman]

Why don't we all fax them and let them know what we think of their proposal?

 

[FN FAL]

Why don't we all fax them and let them know what we think of their proposal?

Because you don't want to get busted for spaming someone's fax machine.

 

[rtmcfi]

Why don't we all fax them and let them know what we think of their proposal?

Better yet, everyone should fax in a resume, and feign interest. Make 'em weed through a stack of applications...

 

[AdamKooper]

I'm sure they already have gotten a few dozen applications.

 

[flyboydh1]

Too bad that time probably isn't even ligit. That airplane, to my knowledge, is a single pilot airplane. So how is anyone going to log it if they aren't the PIC, and no SIC is required? Stupid Stupid Stupid

 

[Amish RakeFight]

well, at $3500, and a one year or 800 hr commitment, you get reimbursed.

Averaged out, this works out to 200 hrs of ME turbine for $3500 if you stayed for 3 months.

If this is at all loggable as a legal SIC, its sounds like a good deal for soemone who needs some multi.

I'M NOT SAYING TO TAKE THE JOB, but sounds like most who might consider it probably wouldnt stay the whole 12 months but just accumulate the time in 3 months if you can survive somehow with bare living expenses for a few months.

 

[dardar]

SIC in a single pilot airplane? Who's job are you taking?

 

[Flyer1015]

Reminds me of those Gulfstream International guys that pay $10,000 to sit right seat in a Beech 1900.

More like $30,000 !!!!!!

$29684 you pay up front, and then during your 250 hours, you "earn back" $2000, for a net cost of $27684, exluding housing and meals.

 

[CX880]

This is really sad and F'd up. What is your occupation John Doe? I fly planes for free. Sad thing is I can imagine how many people are trying to get on with them right now. Atleast they give you free turbine time at the end allthough I can't imagine someone working for free for one year. I guess they know that nobody will stay for more than a few hundred hours and that is where the incentive is for the company to offer this position.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Actually since it's part 135, it could require an SIC depending on the ops specs... or the qualifications of the PIC (could have a "no single pilot operations" limitation). Apparently it's not that uncommon for some of those Metroliner operators.

I say send them a cover letter saying that you are an illegal immigrant and are willing to work for them for reduced wages but not for free. After all even the ILLEGALS make some sort of money for their labor... Send it from kinkos if you're worried about spamming their fax machine.

 

[FN FAL]

It's sickening, but they will get some schlep that will jump in there and do that program.

The poor captain has to put up with a pseudo FO. I'm glad I don't work at a place where that can happen. I'd rather read a book enroute than have to baby sit someone that was so worthless that they had to pay for the seat.

 

[EMB Skillz]

http://jetcareers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=718&d=1147359305

At least it is air carrier experience in something that burns Jet-A. That is way more valuable than being a CFI and letting students try to kill you in the traffic pattern. People pay for multi time in Seminoles all the time, this seems a whole lot better. Besides, if it was posted on JetCareers, it must be a good place.

 

[T-Storm Chaser]

At least it is air carrier experience in something that burns Jet-A. That is way more valuable than being a CFI and letting students try to kill you in the traffic pattern. People pay for multi time in Seminoles all the time, this seems a whole lot better. Besides, if it was posted on JetCareers, it must be a good place.

What a tool. I am glad I don't have to fly with you. It is all about paying your dues in the industry, not "PFT". Your the kind of guy that drags this industry down.

 

[EMB Skillz]

I'm a tool. I am glad I don't have to fly with you. It is all about paying your dues in the industry, not "PFT". Your the kind of guy that drags this industry down.

Flying freight in a turboprop is definitely "paying dues". It will lead to more opportunities than other things like towing banners or instructing.

It will also build your flying SKILLZ

 

[Cadillac]

Didn't learn anything from your week of being banned, did you skillz? You should work on your character skillz.

 

[EMB Skillz]

Thanks for the constructive critique. Any insight as to whether or not paying for turboprop time is any better than paying for multi time or towing banners/instructing? It seems like the turbine time will lead to a better job flying jets.

 

[dardar]

I understand hating a place like Gulfstream, because that is a job that someone should have, but being SIC on a metro flying cargo? Whos job are you taking?

And EMB is right - how is this any different than paying for your time in a seminole?

ATP has that program where you build flight time by flying their seminoles from place to place because their Seminoles NEED to be moved due to Maintenance, so aren't those guys paying to take away someone elses job? Those airplanes should be ferried by the CFIs there! No one complains about that and that's way worse than sitting right seat flying cargo in a metro.

 

[ex j-41]

Thanks for the constructive critique. Any insight as to whether or not paying for turboprop time is any better than paying for multi time or towing banners/instructing? It seems like the turbine time will lead to a better job flying jets.

You are missing the whole point. If someone goes to WORK they should
get PAID for it. That is how you pay your RENT! Got it?

 

[EMB Skillz]

You are missing the whole point. If someone goes to WORK they should
get PAID for it. That is how you pay your RENT! Got it?

That is a great point. Problem is, nobody will hire a pilot without experience. If they can get good experience at this place, why not spend the $3500 for the training. It sure beats $3500 of Seminole/Dutchess time. It will make them more marketable for a regional job so they can get PAID. This program seems like a much cheaper way to get into the industry than the academy "airline transition" rip-off programs. At least this way, they will have training and a checkride with an air carrier. Much more valuable than flying around wasting gas in a piston twin.

 

[ex j-41]

That is a great point. Problem is, nobody will hire a pilot without experience. If they can get good experience at this place, why not spend the $3500 for the training. It sure beats $3500 of Seminole/Dutchess time. It will make them more marketable for a regional job so they can get PAID. This program seems like a much cheaper way to get into the industry than the academy "airline transition" rip-off programs.

It is all about our "Code of Ethics", I am sure flying Cargo with this company
you will be loading and unloading the airplane. FOR FREE!!!!!
How does this seem right? The company is stealing from all of us. If pinnacle
told each F/O that they had to work for free then all the other carriers would
lose out because they could not compete. Then all regionals would be
pay for training and work for free airlines. Then you and me and a lot of
other people would be out of a job.

So the company that pays their employees and treats them right now
suffers for it, cause they can't compete. How is that fair to your brothers?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

First of all, the time is bogus. The aircraft is certified single pilot, and does not require an SIC under 135 for freight operations, in fact NO aircraft certified for single pilot requires it for freight 135 ops. Passenger carrying is a different story, depending on how the aircraft is equipped (autopilot or not), and whether the PIC has an autopilot waiver. No waiver, then you require an SIC. But this is only for IFR 135 passenger operations, does not apply to freight.

But of course, by paying for the time you would never have known that, would you EMB? I'll let you in on a little clue, CFI'ing or flying freight in a Baron or C310 (when the prerequsite experience level is met) is more about how to deal with people, regulations, how to say 'NO' to the D/O when company want's you to do something stupid, among other things. Oh, and yes, teaching DOES hone skills, even in the pattern. Even those decisions and experience apply on the flight deck, maybe not now, but they will someday.

Buying your time? You can always tell, usually a chip on ones shoulder. And lousy people skills. They don't play well with others. Me thinks EMB Spillz is one of 'em!

Peace

Rekks

 

[EMB Skillz]

What if an SIC is required by the ops specs? Thank you for your comments, you have an interesting point. I still argue that you can gain all of the valuable experience you listed at the job advertised. I didn't go this route, but if I was some 250 hour commercial pilot looking to build time, this would be a great opportunity. You would come out of it with at least 1000 hours and 800+ multi turbine. Should be good for a job on a regional jet, and much faster than being a CFI or paying to fly a seminole to get to 135 IFR PIC mins.

With 14,500 hours, you must be very experienced. However, your people SKILLZ indicate that maybe you are the one with a chip on your shoulder.

 

[ex j-41]

Flame

I am starting to think you are Flame Bait EMB....

Just a couple of minutes ago you had 1500 hrs then now 2000 and
getting an upgrade. Just get the letter?

BTW 2000 hrs to be PIC in a EMB 170 is too low. Doesn't matter if
you went to some Space Shuttle academy....When the S hits the fan
the pax need a captain with experience. No offence and you might be
a great pilot but you can't buy experience.

 

[Sig]

ATP has that program where you build flight time by flying their seminoles from place to place because their Seminoles NEED to be moved due to Maintenance, so aren't those guys paying to take away someone elses job? Those airplanes should be ferried by the CFIs there! No one complains about that and that's way worse than sitting right seat flying cargo in a metro.

You win the "Most Obtuse Post on This Thread" award. The only thing being moved outside of those planes is... nothing. Way worse than moving cargo for FREE??! Are you out of your freaking mind? Wait, I'll stop the rhetorical questions if you answer this:

How in the HECK did you drag ATP into a pure PFJ post? These folks are instrument-rated private pilots- how many JOBS do they take from anyone else? NONE. Forget the CFIs- they're flying 120 hours a month dual. At least that was this ATP CFIs experience, and I wasn't alone.

I don't really care, actually. But dang, you obviously have a specific bone to pick. I'll openly grant out the specious nature of my 32 hours of Safety Pilot - PIC, because I DID it, noted it properly in the logbook and went on to get another bung-hundreds of hours of bona fide PIC as CFI; but how that's worse is beyond me.

 

[Rekks Inbound]

I agree with ex j-41, but here it goes anyway:

Ops Specs are not done that way. Single pilot airplane operated in freight service under 135=One pilot (no SIC). If same airplane operated with passengers (and this does NOT include OMC's!) then PIC requires either autopilot authorization or an SIC IF OPERATING UNDER IFR. Open the regs, it's in there. This is a good example of why 'buying your job' is such a piss-poor idea. It's not just about flight itme, people! CFI'ing builds more skills (without the Z) than most people realize. So does 135 operations. It actually is about people skills (which mine are fine, by the way!) as well as operating in a structured enviroment, but also knowing when and what to do when things go REALLY BAD. Or more importantly, when and how to avoide the situation that leads to REALLY BAD! And that sir, is experience, which is something that a lot of guys think they can buy, but oh, they don't know how wrong they are!

Peace.

Rekks

 

[Sig]

It actually is about people skills (which mine are fine, by the way!) as well as operating in a structured enviroment, but also knowing when and what to do when things go REALLY BAD. Or more importantly, when and how to avoide the situation that leads to REALLY BAD!

I can only speak for myself, but I learned that by my lonesome in a P-Baron, not sweating in a Seminole doing my twentieth Vmc demo of the day. I wouldn't trade that experience for the world, and I was getting paid. Meager pay, but pay.

 

[dardar]

CFIs at ATP get 120 hrs a month? That's pretty good.

I'll agree with you guys saying that someone is missing out on a lot by doing this as opposed to CFIing. They aren't going to learn how to be a PIC is the big deal. They will also probably go straight into the right sea of some RJ and then when it's time to upgrade, they won't have much experience with knowing how to handle their responsibility. In this manner, this would absolutely bring down the airline profession.

I guess I just don't see the side of "working for free" since the guy probably doesn't need to be there, and he's probably just making some captains life easier by loading and unloading the cargo. It's a crappy way to build time, but it's not stealing a job.