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Would you drop ALPA if offered SKYW contract, merge of lists, and no fences?

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FishandFly

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 7, 2003
Posts
675
What if they offered us direct merge of lists, no fences, SKYW contract, Drop ALPA?

What if we were offered the following?

SKYWEST contract minus PBS
Removal of senior level ASA MGMT
Direct merge of seniority lists without fences
Drop ALPA

plus

Have a contractual agreement to keep contract as is for period of time unless both parties agree to the change.
 
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FishandFly said:
What if we were offered the following?

SKYWEST contract minus PBS
Removal of senior level ASA MGMT
Direct merge of seniority lists without fences
Drop ALPA

plus

Have a contractual agreement to keep contract as is for period of time unless both parties agree to the change.
Click to expand...



Dropping ALPA would mean no contract, which means management doesn't have to honor that "wish list". No thanks, i'll stick with what we have now.

Zero
 
FishandFly said:
What if we were offered the following?

SKYWEST contract minus PBS
Removal of senior level ASA MGMT
Direct merge of seniority lists without fences
Drop ALPA

plus

Have a contractual agreement to keep contract as is for period of time unless both parties agree to the change.
Click to expand...

Contractual agreement? If you have no union, then you have no contract!!! "Unless both parties agree to the change," you say. Who are the "both parties?" Who speaks for you? You have no union, so there aren't two legitimate parties. Management can do what they wish if you have no union. How about this merged seniority list you speak of? After you have no union then your seniority list won't be worth the paper it's printed on. They can outsource flying, split the list again, whatever they want without union representation.

I really worry for the future of this profession if this mentality is representative of even a significant minority of our peers.
 
No such offer has been made, so this is really a speculative thread.

PCL's point about enforcement of the agreement is true, although you could probably sue the company in open Court over Breach of Contract (as ALPA has whished they could do) and get better results than the current arbitration process.

The trend is clear. ALPA had better start fixing the representational problem on the national level, or else small jet pilots are going to start heading for the exits.

I agree this is bad for the profession, but ALPA has been the author of its own misfortune if this comes to pass. The ASA and Comair MEC members testified to the 2000 BOD that this would happen if nothing changed. Now it is here - exactly as forecast, whipsaw and aircraft transfers.
 
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I predict there is no way the lists merge. If we ever do merge the pilot group will be last to be merged. That could be a bloodbath so I prefer keeping the lists seperate as long as possible.
 
I don't think alpa does anything/enough for the regionals to keep em around. In a different life at another airline I was alpa. The only thing alpa ever did for me was make me feel like a "real" pilot (after they bought us all "free" dinner, then charged us $50 2 months later). "hey im part of alpa" im cool. Well that wore off real fast after they LIED to us, to benefit the mainline.

Too bad, I would of been singing their praises over here at SKW, but like everyone in my newhire class (ALL from other 121 lives, most alpa) 100% anti-alpa. So before you jump all over me for being anti-alpa, ask yourself if that 2% has protected you from wip-saw/contract neg/fleet shrink ect. Try looking inside the box, before throwing it other pilot groups, and I am not saying blame yourself.
 
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HelloNewman said:
I predict there is no way the lists merge. If we ever do merge the pilot group will be last to be merged. That could be a bloodbath so I prefer keeping the lists seperate as long as possible.
Click to expand...

JA stated there was a seven year pay off to merge companies. Merging the lists would just be a negotiating tool as all the pilots for both SKYW and ASA would be able to live where they want.
 
PCL_128 said:
Contractual agreement? If you have no union, then you have no contract!!!
Click to expand...


There are plenty of jobs that exist on a contractual basis without union representation.

Contracts still exist.

How would you fund normal legal proceedings? Well for starters our current 2 percent to alpa equates to about $2,000,000 per year.
 
If I were at SKYW I would not vote ALPA in, at ASA we could not survive without ALPA. ASA mgmt has demonstrated that they enjoy making the lives of their employees miserable.

A case-in-point is reserve away from domicile. The contract as well as the company's policy letter gives guide lines for reserve away from domicile. A stipulation is you can only do it once a month and days off have to be in domicile. I got a call from scheduling while I was sitting reserve in a hotel saying they were going to change my schedule to 6on-1off-6on and that my day off was going to be away from domicile. I told them I wasn't going to do it. They tried to coerce me a little like they always do, but backed down because they didn't have a leg to stand on. If we didn't have a union and a contract they would do this stuff all the time. I know because they still sucker ATL people sitting reserve in SLC to do it more than once a month and not give them their days off in ATL.

Another issue is 8 hours rest. There is a memo saying our latest wheels-up time will be on the release because crews make the mistake of departing not knowing they'll be beyond 16 hours ( I know it's a 8 hour rest issue but the company uses 16 hours from going off rest as the reference in the FOM, a different way to skin the same cat). Well, the issue has not been because of pilot ignorance. It has been because of scheduling's disregard for the FARs. I have been confronted with this four times in six years. Everytime I notify SKD that I cannot legally go they try to threaten me into going, knowing full well I'm not legal. Twice with the same scheduler and the second time he was a supervisor. The other two were just schedulers at the time and one is now a supervisor and the other is now in ASA mgmt.

You would think that if ASA knew about this they would take actions other than promoting the people involved, but their turning the blind eye is just another way of condoning it. We get punished for not following the rules, they stand around the coffee pot patting each other on the back for it.

ASA could not exist if we did not have a recourse for pilot pushing, otherwise I have no doubt that pilots would face repercussions for standing up for the right thing.

The only way a merger would work is if BL and a few others went on the street.

PS A merger won't happen because of SKYW's no-compete clause with UAL.
 
FishandFly said:
There are plenty of jobs that exist on a contractual basis without union representation.

Contracts still exist.
Click to expand...

The only way to have a contract would be to have a different union or to have individual contracts for each pilot like JetBlew has. You can't have a binding contract for the entire pilot group without having an official collective bargaining representative.

How would you fund normal legal proceedings? Well for starters our current 2 percent to alpa equates to about $2,000,000 per year.
Click to expand...

Your figure is high for starters, but besides that, who collects the money and uses it to "fund" these "legal procedings" that you speak of? Who represents you in these procedings? Who does the negotiating? How are they selected?

Either you have a union, or you have no way to represent the collective interests of the pilot group. That's just how the law works. Sorry.

P.S. Your MEC receives a hell of a lot more money back from ALPA than your pilot group puts in. The larger airlines subsidize the regionals. If a regional pilot group wanted to go it alone and provide the same representation that ALPA does, then you would have to jack dues up far beyond 1.95%.
 
WMS,

Could you explain your 16hr vs 8hr deal again with regard to the new wheels up time on our release. I did not follow you on that one.

Medeco
 
If skyWest had done the honorable thing and made the offer your propose concomitant with the purchase, it would have forced a representational vote and ALPA would have lost. Skywest would have one group of happy pilots somewhere very close to SkyWest's current book.

SkyWest squandered that opportunity when they made the rather stupid decision to demand concessions from ASA to begin whipsaw with their own SkyWest pilots. Following their decision with action to impose arbitrary fleet reductions that cost SkyWest more money and resulted in flight cancellations and other failures most felt by Delta's customers has only reinforced the idea that SkyWest management is not what the World believed it was prior to the purchase.

Many of us were considering ASA as a long term career. Not any more. SkyWest and Jerry Atkin were considered the best airline management amongst regionals for their ability to run the airline without attacking the productive employees that deliver the Widgets, well that reputation has been destroyed too.

It is never too late to do the right thing. SkyWest might cap ASA and then do what they should have done, who knows. If it takes seven years to "break even" then the sooner they get started, the sooner they will finish.

You can run separate Certificates with one list to get around scope clauses, reference Republic Airlines Holdings operations.
 
Who would inforce that contract? As poorly as ALPA has represented us I would not drop them for Skywest for anything. A contract with no union to enforce it is really not a contract at all.
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
What does that mean for the RJDC efforts?
Click to expand...
Absolutely nothing (cause I'm a nobody in the process anyway) But, if anything the mainline guys suffered more as as result of ALPA's scope errors than the small jet pilots did. You don't understand that we are in this profession together. You can't sacrifice one pilot group's position without harming other pilots.

If I end up somewhere else, I will push for inclusive scope, fair representation and one list because it would benefit me even more as a mainline guy.

When all this started, it was because mainline MEC members were more concerned about getting their squadron buddies on with a major than upholding a national union. It never was one group of unionists with a different idea about how to run a union, it was a few men in leadership positions who were narrowly focused on the wrong issues.

I always thought junior Delta pilots would become huge RJDC advocates - because they would have benefitted. Guess my faith in the search for truth and independent thought was misplaced, but there are a few of them out there.
 
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No fences? I am by no means up to date on mergers, but there are always fences aren't there? Those are usually put there for a reason. Not that a merger would happen between ASA/SKYWEST. Anybodies guess. No, I would not drop ALPA.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Absolutely nothing, if anything the mainline guys suffered more as as result of ALPA's scope errors than the small jet pilots did. You don't understand that we are in this profession together. You can't sacrifice one pilot group's position without harming other pilots.

Same ol'.. Fins, what you are saying is Rhode Island and Delaware should get more fed money even though TX, NY AK and CA are the biggest contributors.

The regional guys benefit alot from the major pilots dues. But you want more.

You've got to come up with a better way to push your issue. You have a valid concern..... however... The fact that you have gone legal shows you don't have a workable solution. Don't get pissed at ALPA national cause you can't be effective...

If I end up somewhere else, I will push for inclusive scope, fair representation and one list because it would benefit me even more as a mainline guy.

When all this started, it was because mainline MEC members were more concerned about getting their squadron buddies on with a major than upholding a national union. It never was one group of unionists with a different idea about how to run a union, it was a few men in leadership positions who were narrowly focused on the wrong issues.

You lose creditibility with that statement. Squadron buddies? And the ERAU guys help thier buddies. Everybody helps thier buddies. maybe you aren't a good networker and the RJDC is a crutch...

Who are the Navy guys supposed to help? I mean you help the people you know. The Navy guys know their squadron buddies.



You can't argue the attractivness of the MIL guys to the airlines. It doesn't make them better pilots... the packaging is just real nice...kinda like a chick all dolled up to go out....but once you start talking to her its all the same....and if there is some quality there its not cuase of the MIL. Many guys go to the MIL to be attractive to DAL etc.. Should you have done that?



I think your issue really has to do with American culture, company hiring practices, personal efforts in networking and The Haves and Have Nots. Trying to ding ALPA and only ALPA is weak.

It just sounds like, what it really comes down to is your pissed cause you couldn't crack a nut at Deltoid..... They will be hiring soon!

I always thought junior Delta pilots would become huge RJDC advocates - because they would have benefitted. Guess my faith in the search for truth and independent thought was misplaced, but there are a few of them out there.
Click to expand...

The DAL junior guys giving a sh!t? Are you kidding...? They have to treat the DC guys like turds cause they get treated like turds from the DAL senior guys...

Nothing DAL specific.. this is going on at every legacy carrier... Does it warrant a RJDC style lawsuit?









































































No.
 
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Nope - All I'm saying is that Rhode Island and Delaware should have Representation as our Constitution allows and a Supreme Ct. to take things to if Texas decides to pass a law that strips folks from Rhode Island and Delaware of their representation. We are all Americans.

I understand everyone helping their buddies get hired. But if a person runs for a position in ALPA leadership, then their allegience has to be to ALPA members. Circumventing and undermining ALPA's representational structure to ensure placement of personal friends at jobs is not good for the association, or the profession.

The ironies are:
1. This is exactly what got ALPA in trouble with the same MEC during the Pan Am merger. The net result was ALPA having to sell their HQ building to pay a settlement involving the same attorney who brings the RJDC litigation.
1(A). If you could see the numbers for the payments made by ALPA to bail certain MEC's out of legal problems your view of ALPA's balance of payments to small carriers would probably change. I had hoped to report these figures as a result of a Delta pilots' lawsuit against ALPA, Miller v. ALPA, but ALPA paid nearly $700,000.00 to keep those books from going public.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewBusiness.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200209\NAT20020905b.html
2. The guys that Delta MEC members intended to help with their legerdemain at the 2000 BOD were either furloughed, or never got hired, as a result. This proves my point that when you set out to harm one pilot group, you end up harming everyone - maybe even the guys you are trying to help. Had the PID request gone though no Delta pilots would have been furloughed, Delta would have the right sized airplanes instead of inefficient 50 seaters which provide questionable service and there would have been Delta jobs for Delta new hires. So what if it is an RJ, at least the engines are the same as the Hoover and A-10 that many of these guys got out of and the ATR is half a P3, sorta :)
 
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~~~^~~~ said:
Nope - All I'm saying is that Rhode Island and Delaware should have Representation as our Constitution allows and a Supreme Ct. to take things to if Texas decides to pass a law that strips folks from Rhode Island and Delaware of their representation. We are all Americans.

I don't see it that way. However, if you want a ALPA supreme court then why not push that instead of a lawsuit...

I understand everyone helping their buddies get hired. But if a person runs for a position in ALPA leadership, then their allegience has to be to ALPA members. Circumventing and undermining ALPA's representational structure to ensure placement of personal friends at jobs is not good for the association, or the profession.

more info to substantiate....required...

The ironies are:
1. This is exactly what got ALPA in trouble with the same MEC during the Pan Am merger. The net result was ALPA having to sell their HQ building to pay a settlement involving the same attorney who brings the RJDC litigation.

ALPA has ohter reasons for selling HQ. Who is right? Got references?
Click to expand...

.....
 
Rez:

You gave me a big homework assignment just before I have to leave on a trip. Research Duke, Spellacy for the case that made ALPA mortgage the Herndon office. ALPA usually publishes the things they don't want to talk about near the end of their materials - but there is plenty about how ALPA formed Kitty Hawk and moved your dues money offshore to try to protect themselves from a repeat while they continued their failure in DFR behavior. The actual settlement is confidential, but you can look through ALPA's published materials and press accounts and put the story together.

Also, if you know any of ASA's past, or present, MEC Chairmen, Bob Arnold, Ken Cookey, or Dave, ask them about what Bob was told the reasoning behind the Delta's BOD 2000 actions were. The quote was something along the lines of, "military pilots don't want to fly RJ's and Delta can not attrack qualified pilots if they have to fly RJ's. Other quotes had to do with being in the military a lot longer than they had been in ALPA and allegience to military pilots first."

Sorry I don't have time left to spoon feed, but enjoy your googling....
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Rez:

You gave me a big homework assignment just before I have to leave on a trip.

Sorry I don't have time left to spoon feed, but enjoy your googling....
Click to expand...

I ask you to back up what you say and you suddenly have to go fly a trip?

If you want pilots to understand and even support the RJDC then you are going about it the wrong way.

If you want support and understanding starting spoon feeding us....



~~~^~~~ said:
Research Duke, Spellacy for the case that made ALPA mortgage the Herndon office. ....
Click to expand...

No info avail.....
 
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And what if Skywest forms their own alter ego airline ala Republic etc. with it's own operating certificate? It could get really ugly for ASA then....

Trojan
 
Bernard vs. ALPA is even more interesting.....
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
A DFR lawsuit at CAL during the Lorenzo times???
Click to expand...

No, a former Jet America pilot who sued ALPA for DFR when Alaska purchased Jet America. He then went on to be an ALPA EVP - Cress Bernard. As EVP he voted against the ASA/CMR PID.
 

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