Worried about my CFI Ticket

[Flyingtoohigh]

Should I be worried about the FSDO wanting to yank my CFI ticket?

I sent my second student up for their practical test yesterday and he failed it with flying colors; it was like he was a different pilot. My first student failed as well. Now that I'm 0 for 2, should I worry about the FAA wanting to chat about my instructing abilities?

I've already decided to leave flight instruction for awhile. I worked hard for the CFI ticket and would like to keep it. Do I have reason to be worried?

 

[350DRIVER]

The FAA cannot just "yank" your ticket due to two student's failing rides, would not happen my friend. Worse case scenario would be the FAA giving you a 709 ride and I highly doubt that is even likely in this situation. Safety was not compromised, not one of your students was involved in any accidents or incidents, no damage, etc. I think you are worrying for no reason. 0 for 2 obviously isn't something to drink to but you have plenty of more chances to make up for a slow start.

The FAA would never have given you the CFI ticket if you were not capable of exercising the privileges.

3 5 0

 

[troy]

Do you teach at a 141 school? If so, the stage checks that the student must pass via chief/asst. chief should help if any questions arise. Don't give up. Some student's just don't get it the first time.

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

Both students were 141 graduates. The examiner took me aside to ingrain his determination that my teaching and not the students' performance was to blame.

 

[FracCapt]

Both students were 141 graduates. The examiner took me aside to ingrain his determination that my teaching and not the students' performance was to blame.

If they are 141 students, they passed stage checks...right? If they passed stage checks, that proves they performed to the specific requirements for that certificate. You got unlucky and had two students that had brain farts on their checkrides.

 

[RJET]

You Are Worrying Too Much. Just Get Back On The Horse.

 

[S2Pilot]

You have nothing to worry about. Since a 141 school is structured with many written test and stage checks, if your student had a major flaw in his knowledge or flying it should have been discovered before his checkride. I am sure you have talked to your two students, and know what they did wrong. Listen to them and see if you need to do anything different.

Also, I think if you fail a 141 checkride it doesn't result in a pink slip. Instead, you retrain until the student passes and the FAA never knows that the student failed on the first attempt. The student may get an F letter grade if it is for college credit, but the 8710 stays at the school until the student passes.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Also, I think if you fail a 141 checkride it doesn't result in a pink slip. Instead, you retrain until the student passes and the FAA never knows that the student failed on the first attempt. The student may get an F letter grade if it is for college credit, but the 8710 stays at the school until the student passes.

This is only if your school has self-examining authority. I'm 98% sure on that

 

[TDTURBO]

The FAA would never have given you the CFI ticket if you were not capable of exercising the privileges.

3 5 0

I bet you can find a thousand pilots that would argue that point. There are some scarey CFI's out there. That goes for DE's too.

Flyingtohigh, the above post is not meant to be any reflection on your piloting or teaching skills, it was only to point out shortcomings in the system.

 

[350DRIVER]

I bet you can find a thousand pilots that would argue that point. There are some scarey CFI's out there. That goes for DE's too.

You can also make a case for just about anything in life. There is a reason why the FAA conducts these rides with a few exceptions.

3 5 0

 

[bigD]

At least with regards to the FSDO in my area, they're smart enough to understand that two checkrides don't represent a big enough data sample to be statistically significant.

 

[TDTURBO]

You can also make a case for just about anything in life. There is a reason why the FAA conducts these rides with a few exceptions.

3 5 0

But I have had first hand experience with some real idiots. I still can't beleive you can be a CFI with less than a thousand hours, let alone 250.

 

[350DRIVER]

But I have had first hand experience with some real idiots. I still can't beleive you can be a CFI with less than a thousand hours, let alone 250.

I can see where you are coming from..... A few bad experiences will leave a lasting impression on a person. I think this holds true on every level of aviation since in reality a few bad apples may slip through the cracks undetected.

Any big "warm" trips planned Doc?.

3 5 0

 

[minitour]

But I have had first hand experience with some real idiots. I still can't beleive you can be a CFI with less than a thousand hours, let alone 250.

I know what ya mean...by the time I get the CFI ticket I'll have right around 200 hours...

200 hours...what have I possibly learned that I can teach someone in 200 hours?

It really freaks me out...now anyway.

I'm sure that will go away...but they wouldn't have gotten the CFI if they weren't proficient (at least on the checkride). That doesn't mean that some time builders aren't out there to be counterweight in the right seat of a 152, but I personally want to do it right...

Hopefully that will be the difference...low time? Okay...but the desire to not f*ck it up I hope will make up for that.

Anyway...if the CFI you're with isn't working...time to get a new one.


Stick a fork in me...

-mini

 

[TDTURBO]

I

Any big "warm" trips planned Doc?.

3 5 0

Going to the Caymans again in February, you want to tag along? It's 6.5 to the Keys and 2 more over the ocean and Cuba. It's long but it's fun!

 

[350DRIVER]

Going to the Caymens again in February, you want to tag along? It's 6.5 to the Keys and 2 more over the ocean and Cuba. It's long but it's fun!

The idea sounds quite appetizing to me this time of the year!!. How long are you staying?.

Glad to see that you are taking advantage of the plane and making such a trip. A friend is trying to unload his old E90, it has since been replaced with a B100 and the potential buyer wants it flown over to Panama City for his people to check it out there and I contemplated doing that until I realized how long of a flight that would be.

3 5 0

 

[Vik]

I don't think you have anything to worry about. Students fail checkrides and when I was working on my CFI they taught us that it is *always* the CFIs fault because there is some misunderstanding that took place which lead to the student not understanding some specific word and its the CFIs job to teach.

Anyway, yadda yadda, 2 students fail, but your next 8 could pass. If you don't plan to instruct anymore you won't have anymore students, but like someone mentioned, 2 students out of only 2, is not statistically significant. Its like saying, I rolled a die and got a 6 twice in a row, so I'm going to keep rolling 6's.

I wouldn't lose sleep over this unless the students made some serious mistakes like they told him, "preflight??! whats that?"

Should I be worried about the FSDO wanting to yank my CFI ticket?

I sent my second student up for their practical test yesterday and he failed it with flying colors; it was like he was a different pilot. My first student failed as well. Now that I'm 0 for 2, should I worry about the FAA wanting to chat about my instructing abilities?

I've already decided to leave flight instruction for awhile. I worked hard for the CFI ticket and would like to keep it. Do I have reason to be worried?

 

[bobbysamd]

Early student failures and political examiners

Should I be worried about the FSDO wanting to yank my CFI ticket?

I sent my second student up for their practical test yesterday and he failed it with flying colors; it was like he was a different pilot. My first student failed as well. Now that I'm 0 for 2, should I worry about the FAA wanting to chat about my instructing abilities?

I wouldn't worry; it's only your first two, but continue to do all you can to improve your abilities. Try to get some feedback from the examiner on your students' weaknesses. The same advice would apply to instructors with one hundred per cent pass rates over a much longer term.

Both students were 141 graduates. The examiner took me aside to ingrain his determination that my teaching and not the students' performance was to blame.

Yeah, yeah, it's always the instructor's fault when students fail.

While this may be no excuse, perhaps your examiner is pushing an agenda. I would submit that most DEs are extremely experienced, professional and fair people, but there are some who are overly strict, unfair and political.

Case in point: When I first arrived at (141) ERAU-Prescott in 1988, there were three examiners on the field. Riddlers were sent to all three. These examiners failed a significant number of ERAU students, despite them going through Attilla-the-Hun stage checks to ensure their preparedness. In the meantime, these DEs had a gold mine.

The new Chief Flight Instructor's mission was to recover self-examining authority. He came up with a brilliant idea; why not send our students to other examiners? So, we did. We sent our students to examiners in Phoenix and, guess what? They started passing! These Riddlers were no different than the earlier ones whom the local examiners busted regularly. They went through the same "rigorous" ERAU stage check process. Here again, all examiners are supposed to give essentially the same tests. The school's pass rate shot up dramatically and it recovered its self-examining authority.

Finally, what gives one pause is that the FAA apparently has a new hardon for CFIs with sub-par pass rates, as set forth in this recent thread. 609ing them is its weapon of choice. Agreed, it's within the agency's power, but it sounds like using a nuclear bomb to destroy a Porta-Potty. I never heard of such a thing until I read it here on flightinfo.com.

 

[TurboS7]

Instructing is just that instucting. You teach the material, review the material, and the student demonstrated to you that they knew the material. If they flunk that is not your problem that they got jitery in front of the FAA. If you are worried about the FSDO yanking your ticket you are afraid of the FAA.More that likely your students picked up that fear and going to the FAA would be a scary thing. I always used designees, flexible schedule, they will meet you, and they are worth every dime that you pay them for a checkride. The FAA are not cops, they are first suppose to promote aviation, especially general aviation. If the FAA ever called you up it would simply be to question your instructing techniques and offer some asistance and help. The system is based on honesty and integrity, if you didn't instruct them and just signed them off then you deserve what you get. The FAA is trained to figure all that out, that is what OKC is for.

 

[JAFI]

Flying too high, you are getting many opinions here that are based on the few facts you provided. Some things are more complex than first thought.



First examine WHY the students failed. Was it the same maneuver or knowledge area? Did the students feel they were ready or did they just hit the magical number of hours in the 141 program so off to the check ride? Did you cover all areas in the PTS? What emotional or mental baggage (checkitis) did the students take to the exam?



You said the Examiner talked to you about the exam. You need to exam what He (she) said and really determine if there is any truth there. If needed, park your ego for a while and get some independent council from some one you know and trust. I think the best advice is to always find more knowledge than you have to advance/cover your butt/excel in any endeavor. I still look at my self as a student pilot in that I can always learn something from just about everybody. As an Instructor you will need to keep learning the craft, teaching techniques, new technologies, etc. for the rest of your aviation life. So don't be afraid to listen openly.



Next, look at your errant students. What are their weak areas? Work with them to improve and pass that test. Ask assistance and knowledge from more experienced Instructors. As a young Instructor you will learn more in a short period of time than your students.



But now, for your main question. I'll paraphrase: "Will the FAA take away my certificate for having two students fail?" ---- It depends. If you have 2 failures and 10 successes, the answer would be no. If you have no successes or have a failure rate of greater than 30% you can expect some type of visit from an Inspector.



A high failure rate is an indicator of some problems. What the Inspector will do depends on many factors. How has your school done (pass rate) in the past? Maybe the school needs looked at. It sounds like you do not have an in-house Examiner. Maybe they did at one time and lost examining authority for problems at the school. If the examiners you use have a high failure rate the Inspector will know that. How is the relationship between your school and the FSDO? How is your relationship with the FSDO or the Inspector assigned to your school? Well the list can go on and on. Back to your main question.



If your pass rate does not improve you may be re-examined by a 44709 exam. To answer Bobby’s question, think about this. I call a CFI (who has a high failure rate) and say I would like to fly with him to observe how he teaches in a Cessna 152. He says OK, I’ll call you when I have the money to rent the aircraft. The call never comes. Yet, he continues to teach. What legal recourse do I have to make him take the exam and keep the process (hopefully) standardized throughout the country? With the 44709 process the airman has a set number of days to contact the FSDO for the exam. Is this harsh? Perhaps. But, some of your “Brother” pilots have driven the system that way. Remember your U.S. Congress wrote the U.S. Code 44709 and directed the FAA to follow it. You may not like it, but that is life in the fast lane. I do not know one Inspector who likes giving 709 rides. It can be real time consuming and a pain in the neck.



So after my rambling I will say that the quickest way to resolve the situation for the poster is to find out why they failed, fix it, improve your pass rate (and your students), learn from the experience and move on.



JAFI

 

[JediNein]

I'll give a story of my most recent and first student failure. He failed because he couldn't use the GPS.

Now, my specialty is GPS instruction. I take folks that are afraid to touch the thing because it might blow up and have them out there safely doing coupled GPS approaches in IMC. And my first student checkride failure is due to the GPS.

One week previous to the checkride the student took a stage check with the examiner and demonstrated competent use of the GPS and all associated maneuvers for his checkride. He was even answering the examiner's questions about GPS use quite well. The day after the ride he showed me all of the GPS procedures just fine.

Put him together with the examiner and have the 8710 form signed, now he can't remember how to go direct. It's almost a miracle that he remembers his name.

The examiner and I talked for hours on how to get this student through the checkride both before and after the attempt. I'm sorely tempted to send him up on another "stage check" and conveniently forget to mention that this is the checkride re-take.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein