Work rules comparison: JetBlue vs. AirTran

[another cfii]

I need to compare how the 2 stacks up against each other. I know the TA at AirTran is still a work in progress, but how about the current book with what JetBlue has right now?

Reserve period: How long at JFK vs. ATL currently?
Reserve pay: How much you bring home the first few months on reserve?
Scheduling: Flica vs. SAP II (commutability, productivity)
Progression of Days off: How long does it take to achieve more than minimum DO?
Soft pay: What do each have? 4 hr./ day?
Vacation: B6 has Paid Time Off. How about AAI? How does it stack up?

I know it's a shot in the dark, but any B6ers out there know when was the last time pay rate/work rules were adjusted? and when will be the next time? Any union drive still going on?

I will have the blessing to interview with both companies soon, and location doesn't matter much to me. So i'd just like some honest opinions.

Thanks!

 

[IronCityBlue]

Q & A

I need to compare how the 2 stacks up against each other. I know the TA at AirTran is still a work in progress, but how about the current book with what JetBlue has right now?

Reserve period: How long at JFK vs. ATL currently?

Not sure what you mean by "reserve period" but at JB you are on reserve up to 12 hours at a time. Rumor has it going down to 10 hours for mutual pilot QOL and company flexibility (there's little they cau use you for if they call you during those last 2 hours anyway). Long call is 24 hours phone availability and 14 hour call out. You will sit far more short call than long call, but long call can help mitigate your time sitting in base if you don't live in one. If by "reserve period" you mean how long will you be on reserve, at JB that varies dramaticly and intensely. Guys will sit for less than a month or two, then it will jump up to 6 months or more, then fall back down to a month or two. It depends on at what point in our hiring for a particular fleet you get on. We tend to binge hire for a while on a particular fleet, then not hire on it for a while. So the true and correct answer to that question is anywhere from less than a month to over 6 months.

Reserve pay: How much you bring home the first few months on reserve?

Reserve guarantee at JB is 75 hours, including 5 hoours of premium pay. So 77.5 hours of pay times 47 (first year rate for both planes) = $3384/mo minimum on reserve. The company tries very hard to keep you under 75 hours a month so you don't break guarantee, but sometimes in summer and December you can go way over, sometimes not. Not an expert on AT work rules but as I understand their current book absolutely just blows us out of the water for both reserve work rules and pay/soft money, but a lot of that will go away if the TA passes.

Scheduling: Flica vs. SAP II (commutability, productivity)

Flica is mainly for lineholders but does allow you to swap and sometimes drop reserve days as long as available reserve coverage exists. Right now there is plenty of reserve coverage in both planes in all bases I believe. Just a couple months ago yuo could barely swap a single day as every day was understaffed. Scheduling "tries" to give you a late sow your first day and an early release your last day, but I'd say plan on at least 50% non commutable reserve days with the exception of long call, which you will likely end up getting (and keeping) maybe 2-6 days a month when its all said and done.

Progression of Days off: How long does it take to achieve more than minimum DO?

Min days off is 12. As a lineholder you will get more than that almost immediately. 14-17/mo off is not uncommon, but of course is subject to the rest of your bid constraints. Bid nothing but Aruba overnights with weekends off and no red eye flying, you'll probably be getting the min. Flica really comes in handy for lineholders. You can drop (paid or unpaid) any trip as long as staffing is good and you have at least 70 hours/month of credit after its all said and done (including credit for paid drops) and you can swap trips for better trips, even regardless of staffing as long as its day for day. If you're really hard core you can do the PDA Flica alert where you can program what you want and it sends you an immediate alert if something pops into open time and you can get it right then and there. If days off only is your main concern, you can get well over min fairly soon, but keep in mind 14 days off with all commutable days and easy overnights is a lot less work than 17 days off, none of which are cummutable, and doing lots of day turn red eyes going back and fort to the crashpad every day to day sleep sandwiched around the occasional 2 day trip, but to each his own.

Soft pay: What do each have? 4 hr./ day?

JB has 4 hours a day only for 1 day trips only. AT's current book again blows our doors off on soft money. Our main "soft money" like thing here is fly/credit more than 70 hours and get time and a half for the rest. A few trips are rigged here and there, but most are not. You can manipulate the system and make a good bit more than the average in your seat/seniority does, but you will have to hustle and flow big time to make it happen.

Vacation: B6 has Paid Time Off. How about AAI? How does it stack up?

B6 puts 9 hours a month in your PTO bank. Your vacation (at 35 hours a week) sick calls and paid drops all come out of that bank. If you commute and call in unable to commute, many times you can call ahead and they will take the value f the flying you missed out of that same bank. You can also sell those hours in the bank to the company. You can also drop reserve days out of this bank if coverage is available those days. If you want you can just suck it up and bank all your hours first year to drop/sell/whatever at second year pay especially if you're on the bus.

I know it's a shot in the dark, but any B6ers out there know when was the last time pay rate/work rules were adjusted? and when will be the next time? Any union drive still going on?

Last adjusted last fall and again this spring. Go to airlinepilotcentral dot com and see the current rates. Biggest jumps were 190 FO pay, 320 FO pay after year 2, 190 captain pay and senior 320 captain pay, in that order. Retirement also went up from 3% to 10% company money, although other things went away to pay for it, like our sweet stock discount purchase plan and options for new hires. As for union drive, I guess you could say its the same now as it was last year. No official drive now or then, but lots of talk about ALPA, in house and status quo. Who knows. No cards yet if that's what you mean.

I will have the blessing to interview with both companies soon, and location doesn't matter much to me. So i'd just like some honest opinions.

You're doing the right thing by looking into both places. Get as many replies as you can and good luck with both interviews and your decision.

Thanks!

.......

 

[charley]

To back up Iron City Blue......How often do we look at work rule and $$ changes.....every year. Cheers and good luck at both interviews...C

 

[Splert]

To back up Iron City Blue......How often do we look at work rule and $$ changes.....every year. Cheers and good luck at both interviews...C

One year in a row is not a trend.

 

[Beantown]

I would really like to hear from someone one on the AirTran side. I have class dates at both and would like to hear about reserve at AirTran. I have been following the TA threads but I would like to hear what the current contract has to say. Thanks Bean

 

[spitfire1500]

I would really like to hear from someone one on the AirTran side. I have class dates at both and would like to hear about reserve at AirTran. I have been following the TA threads but I would like to hear what the current contract has to say. Thanks Bean

If where you I would pick Airtran. I have spoken to pilots at both and it sounds like a real possibility that in the next year JB's financial problems are going to catch up with them. Airtran has always seemed to have a good business plan. You can have the greatest contract and work rules in the world but if you lose your job it really doesn't matter.

 

[Longhorn]

If where you I would pick Airtran. I have spoken to pilots at both and it sounds like a real possibility that in the next year JB's financial problems are going to catch up with them.

Um...ok,

If I had a dollar for every time I have heard that over the last 6 years....I could retire early..

 

[Ty Webb]

I would really like to hear from someone one on the AirTran side. I have class dates at both and would like to hear about reserve at AirTran. I have been following the TA threads but I would like to hear what the current contract has to say. Thanks Bean

Someone more familia with the reserve situation than me ill have to give you the details. It sounds to me like at FL, you're scheduling's b%^&*% and you make 80-110 hrs credit with 10 or 11 days off. Reserve at FL is punitive and stupid, and if any of the crap in the current TA gets in to our new contract, I'd rather be held in the brig of a 17th century naval ship than be working under those conditions.

I would put off any decision to come to FL until the TA gets voted down, and then would come here only if we get a decent cotnract in the ensuing 6 months.

The corporate culture needs to change in a big way, otherwise this will be a painful place to work, and life is too short. It didn't work at Eastern, and it ain't gonna work here. We currently have Captains leaving, and it isn't usually about the pay.

I would be very careful about going to either company in the next 6 months.

TW

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

FL has made money on a very consistent basis over the last 6 or 7 yrs. How many yrs in a row has FL been profitable? Even though I like JB and there product I don't the same can be said for them, especially over the last yr or two. Regardless if you have to commute or not I think looking at the overall financial health of both companies this is a pretty clear cut and easy decision to make.

 

[Lear70]

Someone more familia with the reserve situation than me ill have to give you the details. It sounds to me like at FL, you're scheduling's b%^&*% and you make 80-110 hrs credit with 10 or 11 days off. Reserve at FL is punitive and stupid, and if any of the crap in the current TA gets in to our new contract, I'd rather be held in the brig of a 17th century naval ship than be working under those conditions.

I would put off any decision to come to FL until the TA gets voted down, and then would come here only if we get a decent contract in the ensuing 6 months.

That's some of the best advice you'll hear.

Some of the guys are working on Section 5 (it's a big section) and the give-backs are SO bad we can't fit it all into a double-sided 2-3 page document. The reserve rules are the worst parts of the concessions, and they're HUGE...

CURRENTLY reserve is pretty cool. I dropped down to 14 days off EVERY month, flew almost every day, never needed a crashpad although I had one anyway (used it MAYBE 2 nights a month), and still credited 85-90 hours. Guys who lived in ATL made out like bandits, crediting 110-120 hours a month and were home every other night with 11 days off a month on average.

If this T.A. passes, you can kiss all of that goodbye. Because of that, now isn't the best time to do a reserve QOL comparison between the two.

I was offered an interview at Blue after I already was here at AAI twice. If I had been offered Blue first, I would have taken it and wouldn't have looked back, simply because of the corporate culture and the fact that Blue services my home town and AAI doesn't.

Some are worried about Blue's financial ability to survive; I'm not. I wonder if they'll still be Blue 5-10 years from now; I don't know (too close to call), but I don't believe they'll go under. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Beantown]

That's some of the best advice you'll hear.


CURRENTLY reserve is pretty cool. I dropped down to 14 days off EVERY month, flew almost every day, never needed a crashpad although I had one anyway (used it MAYBE 2 nights a month), and still credited 85-90 hours. Guys who lived in ATL made out like bandits, crediting 110-120 hours a month and were home every other night with 11 days off a month on average.

Thanks everyone.

Lear, can you explain they rules that allow you to drop 3 days (going from 10 -14 days off). Are there limits to this and/or a loss of pay?

Is there anyway to make the reserve schedule commutable on both ends? (JB tries to give you a late show day one and early on the last day)

Are reserves given a chance to fill there schedules with open time or is it all assigned?

I know this isn't the best time to go to either JB or AI but the fact is I'm going. The regional I'm currently at is not working and I have to do something else.

If I chose AirTran (I live in CLT so it is by far the better commute) I am hoping that the TA fails and I am able to get through training and reserve before another one is passed (assuming the next one will only slightly improve for the new hires.) I know that is a big "If" and that alone might send me to JB.

I am really looking for QOL (seems to favor JB minus the commute) and a second yr paycheck that will allow me to breakeven with the bills at home. Current second yr at AirTran and the 320 at JB will work but second yr on the 190 at JB is no good.

I find myself flopping daily between the two. Neither is a perfect fit unfortunately. I appreciate everyone's responses and I am sure that I will have LOTS of other questions in the next few weeks. Thanks in advance for those who take the time to respond to them. -Bean

 

[Longhorn]

Just curious, how is that a better commute. We have 5 flights a day to JFK from CLT on a mix of 320's and 190's. Our 320s have 5 potential jumpseats. 2 up front and 3 in back (extra fa seat now that we have 3 fa's). The 190 still has 2 jumpseats.

 

[CitationLover]

Just curious, how is that a better commute. We have 5 flights a day to JFK from CLT on a mix of 320's and 190's. Our 320s have 5 potential jumpseats. 2 up front and 3 in back (extra fa seat now that we have 3 fa's). The 190 still has 2 jumpseats.

well strictly speaking as a last resort a 4 hr drive could be made from CLT to ATL on I-85, which is sometimes less than the total flight time (incl getting to and from the airports in question).

that and you get to see the giant peach with a turd hanging out in Gaffney, SC.

http://www.gaffney-sc.com/Waterpeach.htm

 

[Lear70]

Thanks everyone.

Lear, can you explain they rules that allow you to drop 3 days (going from 10 -14 days off). Are there limits to this and/or a loss of pay?

There's a trick to this, and the trick is that you have a few hours on the 28th at noon when the monthly bid opens, allowing drops, to get your drop trips in before one of 2 things happens:

1. The other pilots drop days also (especially weekends) and they eventually hit minimum coverage limits on certain days and it's harder to drop, or

2. Crew Scheduling starts assigning all the open time to reserves and, by the 2nd day, they've already pre-assigned down to the "minimum coverage" limits for each day. Yes, they do this. Yes, it sucks for everyone except the reserve guys.

Limits: the contract says you're not supposed to drop below 65 hours. The limit that Crew Scheduling ACTUALLY USES is 53 once they get control of the monthly schedules on the 28th of each month. Yes, I know this for fact. No, I can't tell you why I know. Just trust me on this one...

Yes, you lose pay. 3.5 hours for each day you drop, but you make it back by flying on just about EVERY other reserve day. Reserves fly here, they don't sit. That's why I always credited over 80 hours as a reserve guy with 14-16 days off a month. Best reserve system I've EVER seen...

Is there anyway to make the reserve schedule commutable on both ends? (JB tries to give you a late show day one and early on the last day)

Yes, bid late reserve and DRIVE back and forth each week.

If you bid early reserve (0430-1630), you absolutely MUST come in the night before. If you bid late reserve (1000-2200), you can get home on the last day by either:

1. Fly on the last day finishing a trip. VERY few trips end too late to commute, most are done by 5-8 p.m. Since you almost always fly, this is the easiest way.

2. The contract allows for them to release you a couple hours before the end of your reserve sit. I always started driving and called them from CHA at the 2 hour mark. I could still make it back to the ATL airport within 2 hours of a call and I was already halfway home. Sneaky, but it was technically legal and it worked.

Are reserves given a chance to fill there schedules with open time or is it all assigned?

That's a bone of real contention around here that we're all a bit testy about right now.

Crew Scheduling is "Supposed" to leave open trips in Open Time for us lineholders to pick up, swap, and trade to our heart's content, but they don't, because the contract doesn't say "MUST" or "WILL". That not only pulls good trips we, as lineholders, might want to trade into, but also depletes reserve coverage WEEKS in advance of the trip, which makes it impossible for us to drop or trade trips later, because there's no reserves, they've all been pre-assigned, down to the "min coverage" level.

What that means is you won't get to pick the trips as a reserve guy, but you'll definitely be flying.

I know this isn't the best time to go to either JB or AI but the fact is I'm going. The regional I'm currently at is not working and I have to do something else.

There's never a perfect time to go. If the quality of life is just as good or better and the future is better, just do it, you'll be glad a couple years later when you're making more money than you ever could at your regional with an equivalently good QOL that you did.

If I chose AirTran (I live in CLT so it is by far the better commute) I am hoping that the TA fails and I am able to get through training and reserve before another one is passed (assuming the next one will only slightly improve for the new hires.) I know that is a big "If" and that alone might send me to JB.

Longhorn is right, the only thing that makes CLT a "better" commute is its proximity to be drivable. They have just as good of a commutable flight schedule in and out of CLT.

The T.A. will fail, the next one will be better, and RSV can be pretty short as an F/O, although as a CA it will be at least 2+ years.

I am really looking for QOL (seems to favor JB minus the commute) and a second yr paycheck that will allow me to breakeven with the bills at home. Current second yr at AirTran and the 320 at JB will work but second yr on the 190 at JB is no good.

2nd year pay is going to go up considerably, at least 15-20% here on the next T.A. (it was 13% on this one before the work rule concessions). What JB has over here (assuming they don't start retiring older 320's again and having neutral growth) is a quick upgrade into the Embraer.

AAI is looking at 5-6 year upgrades for newhires right now. JB is 2-3 years for the Embraer, another 2-3 years for Airbus. The Embraer CA rates are better than our SNB F/O rates, but you'll make almost the same thing at both carriers in the 1st 10 years.

I find myself flopping daily between the two. Neither is a perfect fit unfortunately. I appreciate everyone's responses and I am sure that I will have LOTS of other questions in the next few weeks. Thanks in advance for those who take the time to respond to them. -Bean

Good luck to you!

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

As for as the commute from CLT to ATL goes its not bad. You have AirTran, Delta, and Usair. First flight out 6am last flight out 11pm. I have only got hotel twice in almost 2 years. Also if you need to drive you can do it 3.5 hours. But Lear is right we need to fix the TA first. But as of now I really enjoy working here.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Hey bean JO still beating you down? go ccair!:beer:

 

[g159av8tor]

Thanks for all the good info!!!