Will We EVER see an International ATPL?

[your_dreamguy]

Hey,
I've been looking for a pilot job overseas. Many companies I've talked to require a work permit in their country AND a license conversion.
For most people I've talked to who have applied for jobs in other countries in other fields, they just require a work permit. For example, if someone who is an engineer here, applies to be an engineer with a company in germany, all they need is a german work permit. Typically, they do not need to take exams, etc.
My question is: Do you think the FAA will ever get together with the JAA, CAA, etc. and come up with an international version of an ATP (kind of like an international driver's license)?
That way, a pilot working for Delta could apply with British Airways and only worry about obtaining a British work permit and not worry about converting his US ATP to a CAA ATP.
Also, do you think this is something that we as pilots need to approach the FAA, ALPA, etc. with and demand? I know it would be useful for me.
What's your two cents?

 

[Vik]

I don't think it will ever happen.

The rules/regs are different in other countries.

Politics also play a big role.

 

[mar]

I agree with Vik but...

...in the meantime (if you really want an overseas experience) you should probably look into countries with a less developed aviation infrastructure.

Kenya comes to mind. I've never been there but have met people that have been there. The FAA ATP is accepted and the flying is apparently quite spectacular.

Also Cathay Pacific has hired Americans and then converted their certificates to the Hong Kong aviation authority certificate but lately they don't seem very excited about hiring Americans (for a couple different reasons).

Anyway, there are jobs out there for the FAA ATP. Occasionally you see jobs on Climbto350.com based in Saudi flying metros on a DHL contract or something like that.

Good luck.

 

[huskerfan]

I believe in Canada you can transfer you ATPL. Check with Transport Canada.

 

[surplus1]

In discussing this issue there appear to be several points that have not been considered. Perhaps if they were, there would be better understanding of why things are the way they are.

Let's start with the United States. If you hold an ATPL issued in a foreign country, you cannot walk into to the FAA and exchange it for a US ATPL. Why is that?

1) There really is no international standard for the issuance of an ATPL.

2) If the USA was to recognize and exchange the ATPL of some countries, while refusing to exchange the ATPL of other countries that would amount to discrimination between countries, i.e., favoring some while rejecting others. Politically, the USA can't afford to do that. If it recognizes one license, it must recognize all licenses from every country. That would actually be unsafe. In some countries it is literally possible to "buy" an ATPL and there are really no standards.

That is why the USA does not recognize the licenses of other countries.

Now lets go to the "other countries" and look at their perspective.

1) If their license is not recognized and freely exchanged, then they will not recognize the license of the refusing country. In other words, if you exchange my license, then I will exchange your license. If you will not, then I will not.

2) Despite the above, some countries (mostly in the 3rd and 4th world) will recognize and exchange a license issued in any of the 1st world countries. Others will not.

3) The Western European countries. They are considered to be 1st world countries (like the USA). They have established protocols for the issuance of pilot certificates. These are by mutual agreement and fall under the JAA. Countries that are parties to the JAA, will recognize and exchange licenses with other JAA countries. There are some countries outside of Europe that also meet JAA requirements. The USA is not a JAA country.

4) Standards for the issuance of a US ATPL are quite different from the standards required by the JAA. Frankly, the USA standards are much lower and most Western European Countries, Australia, Canada and similar "advanced" nations, find the US requirements deficient. Whether they are right or wrong is a matter of opinion.

However, most of these countries will issue what is known as a "Validation" of a US certificate. A validation is temporary and must be renewed at least annually in most cases. While it exists, the pilot will be able to exercise the privileges of his own certificate in that particular country. Validations are not issued at the request of individuals at the ATPL level. Usually they require the request of the Company that will employ the services of that pilot. They are very common and in most cases, that is how US pilots are able to fly in foreign carriers (assuming they have the necessary work permits).

5) If you really look at how a US ATPL is obtained, perhaps you can understand the concerns of the JAA.

a) The US written exams are multiple choice questions. The questions and the answers are "available" in advance to the applicant and can be "purchased" in any US license factory. The Western European countries think that is ludicrous.

b) A US ATPL may be obtained in a Cessna 172 or some very light twin. Most Western European countries (JAA) also think that is ludicrous. There feeling is: What on earth is the value of an ATPL obtained in a 172? Does any airline operate 172's? Does any airline operate Seminoles? Why do you need or want an ATPL in that type of equipment? (I'm not choosing sides here, just trying to explain the attitudes.) In other words, they consider the US ATPL to be little more than a "CPL" by European standards.

The fact is it is much more difficult to obtain a JAA ATPL than a US ATPL. What you have to know and be able to do is not the same at all. By the time a US pilot gets to the point of actually being able to use his ATPL he's not flying around in 172's or Seminoles. However, the license itself doesn't indicate that. That is why the Europeans don't really care for the US ATPL. When the pilots background matches his paper work (license) they don't have any problem with it, but in many cases it does not match.

The same concept applies to the US CPL vs a JAA CPL. The truth is the Europeans aren't too far off the right track in their thinking.

For example, the holder of a new US CPL doesn't have the experience necessary to work in any commercial operation (other than things like banner towing and flight instructing). You can't even fly under 135 or 121 (as PIC) until you have met a lot more "experience" required by those rules. In the JAA you meet the requirements before you get the license, not afterwards.

When you get a new US ATPL, what can you really do with it? Not much of anything really. The only place you really need it is in an airline or if some insurance company requires it for a corporate PIC. Otherwise, it is useless.

If you fly for an airline, your ATPL will include a type rating for the airplane you fly. If you fly and airplane over 12-5, that will also require a type rating. So what good is an ATPL without a type rating? Essentially it is useless. Right or wrong, that's how the JAA feels. They wont recognize a "useless" certificate.

Again, I'm not chooseing sides but those are some of the reasons why licenses are not freely exchanged between countries.

I happen to hold a US ATPL and a UK ATPL. I will tell you candidly that it was a lot easier to get the US license than the British license. In my personal opinion, at the time I first got my US ATPL I really knew nothing about being an "Airline Transport Pilot" and that license was just a piece of paper. When I got the UK license I had been an "Airline Transport Pilot" for a long time so it wasn't all that hard and I already knew most of the stuff. However at the starting levels, the US license is a joke compared to the British license.

Requirements in France, Germany, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Spain, Australia, South Africa, etc., are quite similar so they all recognize each others licenses.

On the other hand an ATPL from the Dominican Republic or Haiti or Uganda or Nigeria or Cambodia or Iraq is anybody's guess as to what you know or don't know. In Kenya, there is really no place to train for an ATP. Kenyan pilots train in the US and get US ratings and ATPLs which are then recognized by the Kenyan authorities. That is the case in a great many countries.

The "problems" don't only relate to pilot licenses. They also relate to mechanic licenses. In the US any A&P can work on any aircraft type, even if he's never seen it before. That is not the case in Europe. Mechanics (engineers) there are required to have "type ratings" for the aircraft they work on (much like pilots).

For instance, many is the time I have had a "ferry permit" signed by a US mechanic that knew absolutely nothing about the aircraft I was flying. Nevertheless he could legally authorize me to ferry that aircraft with a malfunction that he knew much less about than I did. That doesn't happen in Europe. If you fly a 737 the engineer that signs your ferry permit has a type rating in the 737. In my opinion, that is a much better system.

Sorry this is so long. Maybe it helps some to understand the why's and wherefore's of the licensing game.

 

[A Squared]

Surplus,

good job explaining why the US atpl is looked upon with disdain in a lot of places. A couple of minor points.


>>>>>A US ATPL may be obtained in a Cessna 172 or some very light twin. Most Western European countries (JAA) also think that is ludicrous. There feeling is: What on earth is the value of an ATPL obtained in a 172? Does any airline operate 172's? Does any airline operate Seminoles? Why do you need or want an ATPL in that type of equipment? (I'm not choosing sides here, just trying to explain the attitudes.)


I know that in the UK at least, you can in fact get an ATPL in a seminole. I know pilots who have done just that. My understanding is that it's quite common, or perhaps you intended Western Europe to exclude the UK?


>>>> In the JAA you meet the requirements before you get the license, not afterwards.

In the UK they have what is called a "frozen ATPL" which means that you have passed the knowledge and flight tests, but don't meet the experience requirements. I don't know the specifics, but I seem to recall that it's pssible to get a frozen ATPL with less than 500 hours, total time. I don't know if the JAA has anything like this.


Your comments about the knowledge exams are right on, it's no wonder our tests are the laughing stock of the rest of the world. Any reasonably motivated high school kid, with no prior knowledge of aviation, could spend a week or two with the ATP "exam guide" and ace the knowledge test.




regards

 

[your_dreamguy]

Surplus and A-Squared

Thanks for your posts. I am not arguing about recognition of certificates. You just gave good examples of why there are differences between ATP certificates issued in other countries. MY question is: Should we as pilots start pushing the FAA, JAA, CAA, ALPA, governments, etc. to resolve these differences and standardize aviation as much as possible such that an "International" ATPL can be available? Thus, a pilot in any country can obtain such an "International" ATPL and fly in other countries without having to go through the lenghty headache of license conversion that exists today. That way a pilot working for an airline would be able to apply with a carrier from another country and have to worry about one less item. Also, remember that automobile driving has been standardized to the point such that an American can obtain an international driver's license and drive in other countries.

 

[dsee8driver]

Not too sure about process..

A few years ago I met a guy working for my brother who immigrated from Italy to the US. He held an Italian equivalent of a private license. All we did was to go to the local FAA office and he recieved a US Private pilots license based on his Italian license. Only thing he had was a restriction on night vfr because that doesn not exist in Italy. He walked in and out with a license. I don't know the particulars about the others and found the above post very informative but I thought it was odd he could just get a license so easily here. I do understand he had to go through lots of testing and practical work before he got his Italian license.

 

[surplus1]

At the PPL level you can do that but as far as I know not at the higher levels.


dreamguy,

That would be a good idea but it will take a long time. No harm in trying.

One of the hardest to convince might be the French. That is because commercial and especially ATP licenseing is really controlled by the labor unions (SDL), not legally but politically. They make it especially difficult to get a French ATPL, even for Frenchmen, which limits the number of pilots and protects the jobs of those already licensed. It has worked well for them.

One of the more recent problems for Europeans, since the collapse of the Soviet empire, has been the sudden influx of large numbers of Eastern European pilots all highly qualified but willing to work for peanuts due to the economies of those countries. That will go away as they gradually join the EU but meanwhile you'll get lots of resistance.

There's more to this than technical qualifications. For example, our market here in the US is already flooded with excess pilots. Think of what might happen if everyone else could easily just appear on the scene and legally fly professionally here. Turn that table around and flood Europe with the excess Americans. You'll get much more resistance on those grounds than on the technical stardards which could be easily agreed.

In many ways your idea has the same connotations of a national seniority list. Great idea but politically virtually impossible.

Good luck.

 

[XGmaninGA]

Gee, and here I am with my worthless US ATP flying in the most advanced congested airspace in world. We fly more flights, more airplanes, to more places, in more kinds of wx, than any other country or combination of countries, in the world.

Pardon me while I choke over European condescension.

 

[naviator]

There are new rules in the works (if not implemented already) stating that the FAA will no longer issue ANY US certificate based on a foreign license.

On the JAA vs FAA question. As a Norwegian citizen with FAA certificates only it is a lot harder and more expensive to even convert my FAA certificates into JAA licenses after the European countries got together and formed the JAA.

One of the reasons is that the JAA countries want to prevent students (pilots) to spend all their money in "cheap" America and then coming back to work in Europe. By making it harder to convert they hope to keep the "training-money" in their own pocket. At least that's my .02 cents on it.

....and frankly, as mentioned in earlier posts, it is way harder to aquire a JAA ATPL vs getting a US ATP. In Europe there is supposedly 14 different written tests and I've been told it would take you 6 months of full time school to be ready for it. Here all you need is your Gleim book and you're good to go.

The convertion from ATP to ATPL is different and a bit easier if you have multi-crew experience and about 3000 hours. In that case I've been told you only need to do 2 of the 14 written tests, pluss the flight tests of course.

But who knows, miracles do happen, so maybe I'll be able to go back to the motherland one day without converting. I'm not gonna hold my breath though

 

[Aerosmith]

The JAA was an inevitable thing. Problem is to many countrys pi¤¤ing up the same tree. Unfortunately this means that the curriculum for the JAA ATPL has become monstrous. To get a CPL license with the ATPL written, it will require in excess of two years full time flight and ground training. I teach part time at one of these schools, and it never seizes to amaze me, how difficult it has become. I recieved my own tickets at FlightSafety Vero, and allthough excellent training, they cant compare at all with JAA standards. At this point I am not even talking about this so called ATP written. Studied a red book for a few days, and took ride in a Seminole. Even took a SE add on in a Cherokee. Basicly as usefull a ticket as a Disney World kiddie drivers license.
In JAA land, an ATPL has to be taken on an aircraft that requires an ATPL. Otherwise it is nothing more than a CPL.

Just on a note; If it is possible to take a ATP in a Seminole, why cant you get your FE license on the same type? I mean, an FE is not required, but neither is an ATP?

Before JAA, conversion was a big circus in Europe. People would come back with a US license gained from a cheap part 61 instructor, mostly given in the back of his pickup truck in a corn field. They needed additional training in excess of 100 hours before they could pass a check ride. Others had joined high quality US flight schools and had the conversion all done in a week back home. These huge differences in standards meant that Europeans couldn't just accept any license. Especially since US ATP standards pretty much equal JAA CPL standards, flying wise.
This is not to belittle the US version. My training in the US has allways been beyond excellent. Even had the pleasure of working at your airline, Surplus1.
Apart from that; Part 121 training is pretty much the same everywhere, but that is another story.

 

[A Squared]

Just on a note; If it is possible to take a ATP in a Seminole, why cant you get your FE license on the same type? I mean, an FE is not required, but neither is an ATP?

No, a engineer is not required in a seminole, but a pilot is reqiuired, and the ATP is a pilot certificate.

getting a FLight engineer certificate in a seminole would be more analagous to getting your ATP in a sailboat.


regards

 

[Aerosmith]

A squared, I said REQUIRED license. A Seminole does not require an ATP. A PPL will do. Compare it to taking a Semi truck license in a beetle. Useless!
What on earth is the purpose of this license then?

 

[A Squared]

>>>>A squared, I said REQUIRED license. A Seminole does not require an ATP. A PPL will do.

Yes, I understood perfectly what you said. I was giving you an opportunity to realize the foolishness of your statement. Appaerntly you have failed to take advantage of that opportunity.


It appears you believe that a Seminole is not appropriate for an ATP checkride, because an ATP is not required to fly one, rather, an ATP checkride should be taken in an aircraft which requires an ATP. If FAA was aflicted with your myopia, there wouldn't be very many ATP's issued, in fact, none at all. News flash, my friend, there's not a single airplane on this planet which requires an ATP. They can *all* be flown with a private pilot license and the appropriate type rating or LOA, if required.


Regards

 

[Aerosmith]

Pure retorics, a checkride for an AIRLINE transport pilots license is the same ride as a typerating. Its the same PTS. "Airline Transport Pilots license AND aircraft type rating practical test standard" FAA-S-8081-5

I agree with you that Mr. Travolta can fly his beautiful 707 on PPL with an assosiated Typerating, but that is not the point in this discusion.

I am just telling you what the value of a US Seminole ATP is in Europe and Australia and a few other places. A nice piece of paper, thats it!.
A Typerating on an aircraft REQUIRING this on the other hand is widely accepted in most of the world (and with good reason)

I still wait for an explanation of the purpose of a SE Cherokee ATP performed to this standard.

http://www2.airweb.faa.gov/Regulato...cular.nsf/0/e6f473d2ab86c8cc86256ab600731af2/$FILE/Ac61-89e.pdf

Dont take it personal

 

[de727ups]

Europe flying

Some say the US system of ratings is a joke. I think a lot depends on your attitude and your instructor. Personally, I think the JAA standards are a joke. Why make a guy go through all those tests to fly in Europe. I'll tell ya why....flight training is Europe is VERY expensive and there is a lot of money at stake. If they relax the standards, then any two bit american could come over to Europe and get a job...it's all political. I'm a 121 B727 crewmember for a major US airline flying, this week, between Germany and Poland. I can tell you that it's not that different than flying in the US and I had NO special training prior to coming over here.

We have some ex pat, non US citizens, on our seniority list....I would guess a lot higher percentage than US pilots on the seniority list of a European airline. Do to political reasons, my company is only allowed to crew some of our intra-Europe flying.

Now....I know that European airlines aren't allowed to fly intra-US routes...and that would open a big can of worms...so I guess I should just sit back and be happy that we have the European flying we have.

I guess it just ticks me off when someone suggests that the American system is flawed and inferior because we don't have 12 tests and six months of study to be considered good enough to fly to the high European standards.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Europe flying

Some say the US system of ratings is a joke. I think a lot depends on your attitude and your instructor. Personally, I think the JAA standards are a joke. Why make a guy go through all those tests to fly in Europe

I don't agree with you. Your attitude nor your instructor are not the issue. The issue is your experience level and knowledge base. We're talking about the initial issuance of a certificate. That's very different from comparing pilots with equivalent experience and training.

Two 747 Captains, one British and the other American, are not very different from each other and no one is saying that they are. However, there is no comparison between a 747 Captain and a Seminole captain in either location. No matter how good the Seminole instructor may have been or how perfect the attitude of his student, you're still comparing apples and oranges.

You don't make a guy go through all those tests "to fly in Europe". As you point out, flying in Europe is no more difficult than flying in the USA. You make the candidate go through the training to become an "Airline Transport Pilot". That has nothing to do with where he exercises the privileges of his license. With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of the discussion.

Now....I know that European airlines aren't allowed to fly intra-US routes...and that would open a big can of worms...so I guess I should just sit back and be happy that we have the European flying we have.

Whew, I'm glad you got that part right. The same thing applies if you have a bunch of pilots from either side flying in the other guys territory. The more you increase the supply (while the demand remains pretty constant), the more you lower the wages.

You're are correct when you say it's political. It is, but some of the politics makes sense. Cabotage with licenses isn't much different than cabotage with airplanes. That's part of what this is trying to avoid.

As an American pilot, I don't want American skys saturated with European airliners nor do I want American cockpits saturated with European pilots, many of whom would work for far less than we do. The Europeans apparently feel the same way that I do. They don't want European skies saturated with American airplanes and European cockpits saturated with American pilots. Can you blame them?

Their system of licensing has helped them to control the influx of foreign pilots as well as to control an excess of European pilots. Our system has resulted in a continuous oversupply of pilots with the "right" licenses and tons of foreigners working for US airlines while Americans are unemployed.

The fact is there is merit to both ways of doing things. How you see it depends to a great extent on whether you're a new pilot wanting to enter the job market easily or a professional already in the market who just wants to stay employed and would rather not compete with the lowest denominator.

I guess it just ticks me off when someone suggests that the American system is flawed and inferior because we don't have 12 tests and six months of study to be considered good enough to fly to the high European standards.

It used to tick me off too until I came to understand it. I think you're missing the point of the discussion. It's not about 12 tests and six months being better than 1 test and 3 days.

As you point out, there is virtually no difference between a European Captain of a 727 and a US Captain of a 727. The Europeans recognize that and so do we Americans. As a 727 Captain seeking conversion to a European ATPL you don't have to start from scratch and it takes only 2 tests and no where near 6 months (in most cases). I did it and I never went to a formal school, I did my studying on my own. I chose the UK ATPL because I speak English. I wouldn't have done well in Dutch, German or Swedish. When you are seeking initial certification, there's a big difference from a legitimate conversion.

I would also point out, which surely you know since you are flying in Europe, that there are substantial differences between ICAO rules and US rules. We signed the treaty, but in general we don't comply with it and those of us that haven't flown overseas know nothing about it. Until recently, most American pilots couldn't even read a weather report outside of the US. Most new US ATP licensees, have never seen a 500 mb chart or a 200 mb chart and can't read it. Most have no understanding of Flight Levels and Transition altitudes that exist everywhere in the world except the USA. All we know is FL180, which is not very helpful outside of the US. We also hear the words "radar contact" and thereafter cease to navigate. Not very practical outside of the US. I'm an American born and bred, but that doesn't keep me from being objective. I've flown all over the world and outside of the airlines or the advanced corporate operations, our training is just not as good or as complete as it is in Europe.

The difference is when you have someone that says he's an "Airline Transport Pilot" and he has never piloted any Transport Category aircraft. If you think about it, that's really kind of silly. It gets even worse when the "Airline Transport Pilot" has never flown anything bigger than a 172. That is possible in the US system. It is not possible in the European system.

Twelve tests and 6 months may be unrealistic but no more so than a multiple-choice written with the answers given to you in advance and a 1 hour check ride in a Seminole. Three days of regurgitation at Joe Bloe's flying school and now you're an ATP. Really? An instructor teaching you how to be an "Airline Transport Pilot" who himself has never flown a transport or worked for any airline. Don't you find that a little strange?

By the time you take an ATP in the US that you have earned in the employ of a 121 carrier operating T-category equipment, you are just as qualified as your European counterpart in most cases. However, when you have 1500 hours in Cessnas, hold an ATP, but can't read a performance chart and have no knowledge of anything that has to do with T-category operations, why on earth do you hold an ATP? So you can feel good?

Maybe, just maybe, if our US commercial and ATP licenses were a little more realistic we wouldn't have such a glut of allegedly qualified pilots saturating a narrow market. In that case, those who are really qualified would not have to compete for jobs with those that are not.

There is more than one side to the "politics" of this debate. The Europeans aren't all right but they aren't all wrong either.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

actually if you were using a seminole in a FAR 135 op for passenger carrying the PIC would need an ATP because any multiengine airplane used in passenger carrying under 135 requres an ATP. Also if you were flying a grand caravan (12 seat version) you would need a single enginge atp because it's a passenger carrying op with over 10 seats.

 

[jsoceanlord]

someone was talking to me recently about 20 year old 747-400 FO's in Australia.

And there's ab intio training programs that foreign air carriers use a lot.