Will of ALPA Pilots?

[Fly4hire]

Will of ALPA Pilots on 65?

ALPA's "overwhelming" support for changing age 60........

Age 60 Survey results:

Do you favor changing Age 60:

Total participants: 18275
For Change: 42.7%
Against: 53.7%
Not Sure: 3.5%
Prefer Not to Say: 0.1%

CAL was 43.6% for, 52.2% against

Can you say BOHICA?

 

[Huck]

Don't look at the FDX numbers or you'll get REALLY pissed....

 

[Fly4hire]

Don't look at the FDX numbers or you'll get REALLY pissed....

Yup. They are also the ones driving for the ROPES to be able to return to the Captain seat, which is loosening of what is written in S706. The EC is supporting that change as well.

My sincere condolences to any junior Captains at FDX.

ALPA - Aging Lame Pilots Association

"Old pilots protecting the profession - for themselves"

 

[FlyWolf]

Don't look at the FDX numbers or you'll get REALLY pissed....

Or Midwest

 

[elag777]

ALPA will do what is best for ALPA period, line the coffers and keep the membership dues of all those guys getting ready to retire. Nothing more than a outdated organisation that needs to be retired ASAP.

 

[TheBaron]

The numbers are even more lop-sided for us to pull out of Iraq. When you elect people to represent you, you can't expect them to always do what "you" (or even the majority) think is the right thing. Welcome to representative democracy. Did you all sleep through high school civics classes or did you take home economics instead?

 

[pylut]

Short answer: alpa = evil.


Expanded version: alpa has grown itself into a beaurocratic mess more concerned about itself then the pilots whose rights it was originally created to protect.

Solution: alpa must die.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Did you all sleep through high school civics classes or did you take home economics instead?

I am guessing home economics. They may not particpate in democracy but I bet they can bake a kick as$ bunt cake....

Total participants: 18275

That is 30.4% of the membership! Hardly a majority! Oh its the majority of the minority.....

Why not argue that by choosing not to particapte that was a vote for the status quo!!

It took 15mins to "do" the survey. I bet most pilots can tell you about the 60m they spent watching American Idol or Desperate Housewives!

Demoracy requires responsibility.....

Were is the Will of ALPA pilots when it comes to voting for LEC reps? Attending meetings (5% attendance rate).

ALPA pilots like most Americans want one stop shopping with express lane check out.... when it comes to democracy. They really don't want to be bothered with trival things like managing ones own career.....until the storm is in thier zip code... then the aloof members suddenly are experts, demand unrealistic action and cry fubar when instant results do not appear...

I just find it hard to believe that an aloof membership understands the political landscape, ramifications and short/long term results of the dynamics of Age60 all interwoven on CapHill. Even I don't. That is why I sent reps to the Hill.

 

[Swaayze]

You have to assume the ones who didn't bother with the survey really don't care much one way or the other. You cannot complain about the results of a survey that was open to everyone when many chose not to participate.

 

[737 Pylt]

IThat is 30.4% of the membership! Hardly a majority! Oh its the majority of the minority.....

Why not argue that by choosing not to particapte that was a vote for the status quo!!

It took 15mins to "do" the survey. I bet most pilots can tell you about the 60m they spent watching American Idol or Desperate Housewives!

Demoracy requires responsibility.....

Were is the Will of ALPA pilots when it comes to voting for LEC reps? Attending meetings (5% attendance rate).

ALPA pilots like most Americans want one stop shopping with express lane check out.... when it comes to democracy. They really don't want to be bothered with trival things like managing ones own career.....until the storm is in thier zip code... then the aloof members suddenly are experts, demand unrealistic action and cry fubar when instant results do not appear...

I just find it hard to believe that an aloof membership understands the political landscape, ramifications and short/long term results of the dynamics of Age60 all interwoven on CapHill. Even I don't. That is why I sent reps to the Hill.

Rez:
I too am dissapointed in the turn out for this poll!
I guess most people didn't care or thought it would not effect them negatively. My how times have changed.
One thing remains constant. The more things change, the more they remain the same. The younger pilots will continue to get (insert curse word here) over by the older more senior pilots!

737

Took the 15 minutes to fill out the survey!

 

[Pinkslip]

My picture says it all.

 

[Fly4hire]

That is 30.4% of the membership! Hardly a majority! Oh its the majority of the minority......

Why even make the pretense then? When only 50% of the general public votes, we don't disregard the results if it doesn't suit our agenda.

Representational government is still supposed to vote the expressed will of their constituents. Were there more than 53% of 18275 pilots who called their Reps in favor of age 65? And I suppose all those back channel conversations over age 65 are more valid than the survey?

 

[Flopgut]

I am guessing home economics. They may not particpate in democracy but I bet they can bake a kick as$ bunt cake....





That is 30.4% of the membership! Hardly a majority! Oh its the majority of the minority.....

Why not argue that by choosing not to particapte that was a vote for the status quo!!

It took 15mins to "do" the survey. I bet most pilots can tell you about the 60m they spent watching American Idol or Desperate Housewives!

Demoracy requires responsibility.....

Were is the Will of ALPA pilots when it comes to voting for LEC reps? Attending meetings (5% attendance rate).

ALPA pilots like most Americans want one stop shopping with express lane check out.... when it comes to democracy. They really don't want to be bothered with trival things like managing ones own career.....until the storm is in thier zip code... then the aloof members suddenly are experts, demand unrealistic action and cry fubar when instant results do not appear...

I just find it hard to believe that an aloof membership understands the political landscape, ramifications and short/long term results of the dynamics of Age60 all interwoven on CapHill. Even I don't. That is why I sent reps to the Hill.

If this vote were to pass or fail a contract how would it go? Not like this! Not every single pilot gets a vote on one group's contract. That is the exact viewpoint you should take on this. Sure more pilots should have voted, but this is certainly a quorum. And even more certainly enough a quorum with a clearly sufficient mandate that has obviously been ignored. Don't overlook the realities: We know the issue and we know ALPA's history, the majority has been backstabbed.

 

[Huck]

The numbers are even more lop-sided for us to pull out of Iraq. When you elect people to represent you, you can't expect them to always do what "you" (or even the majority) think is the right thing. Welcome to representative democracy. Did you all sleep through high school civics classes or did you take home economics instead?

a. As to our education, I'd be more than willing to swap transcripts with you, if you're interested.

b. Representative democracy is not a license to be a dictator. The feedback loop has to be much shorter than what you're describing.

c. If 2006 didn't convince you, wait for 2008. Americans understand that indeed they CAN expect your representatives to do what they think is the right thing, or they get to U-Haul their asses home. Americans are going to vote for the candidate who will be most likely to clean up W's messes. They're even considering a Clinton again....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If this vote were to pass or fail a contract how would it go? Not like this! Not every single pilot gets a vote on one group's contract. That is the exact viewpoint you should take on this. Sure more pilots should have voted, but this is certainly a quorum. And even more certainly enough a quorum with a clearly sufficient mandate that has obviously been ignored. Don't overlook the realities: We know the issue and we know ALPA's history, the majority has been backstabbed.

Or the elected reps of any democracy can state only a minority particapted therefore the will of the collective is unknown or they are apathetic or they trust my judgement.... Regardless the Rep has carte blanc.....

 

[MCDU]

Once USAIR drops ALPA, ALPA will slowly become the Union for the commuters. ALPA is not a Union, its an Association

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

b. Representative democracy is not a license to be a dictator. The feedback loop has to be much shorter than what you're describing.

Cute. I don't think there is any dictatorship going on here. They were elected and can be recalled.

Respresentative democracy is a responsbility. Vote those who have the power (memership or citizens to PARTICPATE!)

c. If 2006 didn't convince you, wait for 2008. Americans understand that indeed they CAN expect your representatives to do what they think is the right thing, or they get to U-Haul their asses home. Americans are going to vote for the candidate who will be most likely to clean up W's messes. They're even considering a Clinton again....

U-haul? like recall? Doesn't sound dictorial to me?

 

[tomgoodman]

We have met the enemy.....

One thing remains constant. The more things change, the more they remain the same. The younger pilots will continue to get (insert curse word here) over by the older more senior pilots!

And one other thing remains constant: those younger guys will some day be senior and in the majority, whereupon they will steamroller the new minority, younger, or nonvoting group. "I WAS ROBBED, AND I'M GOING TO GET IT BACK!" Unfortunately, we all tend to think this way. Management grins, since it allows them to "jack down the house, one corner at a time".

 

[Flopgut]

And one other thing remains constant: those younger guys will some day be senior and in the majority, whereupon they will steamroller the new minority, younger, or nonvoting group. "I WAS ROBBED, AND I'M GOING TO GET IT BACK!" Unfortunately, we all tend to think this way. Management grins, since it allows them to "jack down the house, one corner at a time".

Tom:

I like your posts and perspectives. I have to say though, there are some unions where this behavior is not the norm. I'm starting to think this is unique to ALPA.

When is one generation of pilots going to stand up for the whole group? I know Prater, I was excited he was going to run ALPA, what a sad joke he's turned out to be! I don't know how this group of senior pilots we have now could be so inept and self absorbed? Look at the things this profession has been through in recent years. I have no idea how this age change can be the overwhelming and urgent issue for these guys. Beef took on Oprah, the NRA vehemently defends the 2nd, What's ALPA do? Remortgages pay and career progression to benefit a very small group for a very short time! At the very least JP should have some other more organic effort that is primary to this lateral (or reverse) step. How do they not see any other opportunity?

I would have been more inclined to support this for our senior types and sought to break this chain of greed, but I've never got the sense that this is all they want. As lopsided as this deal is for a senior type you still don't hear/see anything circling the issue that suggests this would be adequate for these guys or that they may want to also highlight the needs of their coworkers. There is no other meaningful effort on the part of JP or ALPA but this.

 

[737 Pylt]

And one other thing remains constant: those younger guys will some day be senior and in the majority, whereupon they will steamroller the new minority, younger, or nonvoting group.

Tom:
With ALPA changing the "age 60 rule unilaterality," those so called "soon to be senior guys will have to wait another 5 years to be "senior."

"I WAS ROBBED, AND I'M GOING TO GET IT BACK!" Unfortunately, we all tend to think this way. Management grins, since it allows them to "jack down the house, one corner at a time".

I'm not picking on you, but is that how you saw it when you were an active DL pilot? I'm curious, because I wasn't seeing it that way at all.
I don't think the bottom 800 or so pilots will ever be able to screw as bad as they have been screwed.

• DL Express pay
• Greenslipping by guys while we had furloughees
• PRP's (greenslipping)

These are just a few......Again, the senior guys had a chance to REALLY screw the junior guy.
737

 

[tomgoodman]

Mea Culpa

737 Pylt,

Well, I voted for the TA which included a "B-scale", so I'm as as guilty as anyone. We bought the argument that it was "inevitable" and that we owed nothing to people who were not (as yet) voting members. The alternative would have been larger hits to OUR pocketbooks. Some joked about a future "Revenge of the B-Scalers", and then were shocked, shocked when they allowed our pensions to be terminated, using the same arguments that we had used. Then everyone was amazed when this, in turn, became a major factor in reviving the long-dormant "age 65" push.

An old ALPA official once told me that the union must protect you from the company, from your fellow pilot, and from yourself. Opinions vary as to whether or not ALPA is fulfilling this duty.

 

[pylut]

Or the elected reps of any democracy can state only a minority particapted therefore the will of the collective is unknown or they are apathetic or they trust my judgement.... Regardless the Rep has carte blanc.....

Apparently your hypocracy knows no bounds. You lament the fact that more did not participate. Yet you cast aside the input from those who did vote. That will really motivate those folks to want to participate again.alpa must die.

 

[Flopgut]

I wonder how many more would have participated if JP had not signaled his intentions prior to the vote closing.

 

[Andy]

That is 30.4% of the membership! Hardly a majority! Oh its the majority of the minority.....

rez, that's a rediculously stupid argument for tossing aside an 11% percent split between those in favor and opposing a change. But I've learned to expect that from you.

ALPA has chosen to ignore the will of the majority at it's own peril. Ask me how I NOW feel about crossing a picket line.

 

[filejw]

So whats the point here. As 50 yr old I suppose I should have an opinion age 60 but I really don't. However I do respect the ALPA leadership in they know when fight is lost either from inside info from Washington or just reading the writing on the wall so to speak.65 was going to come whether we as ALPA members want it or not. ALPA National wanting to put themselves in a position to maybe craft what Age 65 looks like is not such a bad idea.In fact aren't they supposed to be politically suave on our behalf.

 

[SlipItIn]

Insult to injury...

This gets even uglier... my sources tell me ALPA wants to change the "one pilot over 60/one under 60" standard that ICAO uses only because the last potential opposition to fast-tracking the change is opposition from the Air Transport Association (i.e. it will cost the member airline's money to have that limitation imposed on them). Get that out of the way and this thing is set to be fast-tracked as sure as the day is long. Two 64 year-old gummers will be legal to be asleep together at the wheel after discussing preferred batteries for their hearing aids. John "Judas" Prater is carpet-bagging, charlatan thief who has secured his position as the biggest sell-out in ALPA's history.

 

[737 Pylt]

737 Pylt,

Well, I voted for the TA which included a "B-scale", so I'm as as guilty as anyone. We bought the argument that it was "inevitable" and that we owed nothing to people who were not (as yet) voting members. The alternative would have been larger hits to OUR pocketbooks. Some joked about a future "Revenge of the B-Scalers", and then were shocked, shocked when they allowed our pensions to be terminated, using the same arguments that we had used. Then everyone was amazed when this, in turn, became a major factor in reviving the long-dormant "age 65" push.

An old ALPA official once told me that the union must protect you from the company, from your fellow pilot, and from yourself. Opinions vary as to whether or not ALPA is fulfilling this duty.

Tom:
Thanks for the honest answer.
One thing is for sure.......WE are our worst enemy! <sigh>
Management always wins! (ok, so that's 2 things!)
It would appear that ALPA is a dying entity indeed! I almost wonder where this industry is going, and how ANYONE with a sane mind can justify getting into this business any more........

737

 

[Freight Dog]

Rez... you sound like a broken record. Please change your tune. So what if we had 100% participation - would it have made any difference? I truly doubt it.

ALPA is outdated and irrelevant.

 

[filejw]

SlipItIn, Well the big reason for change is to be ICAO compliant so I don't see how they will slip that in.ATA can try if they want but seems i doubt they will get a change.

 

[PCL_128]

Ask me how I NOW feel about crossing a picket line.

Ok, I'm asking you. I happen to agree with you that ALPA screwed up on this issue, but how does that affect your feelings about crossing a picket line? ALPA's leadership screwed up, so now you think it's ok to SCAB and screw over your fellow pilots? Please explain.