Why G0jet matters

[redbook]

I am posting Rsspilot's response again, with my original question. He says "hell yes" he would join an alter ego again, and says it is due to having "no love" for unions. I doubt many pilots at Fedex, UPS or anywhere else would give a dang what his reason/excuse would be for joining an alter ego. Same at Trans States Airlines



Quote:
Originally Posted by redbook
I have challenged any g0jet pilot to respond to a simple question. They defend joining an alter ego and being part of a whipsaw. However when I ask if they would join an alter ego to whipsaw, say Fedex, they fall silent.

Rsspilot and the other g0jet alter ego pilots can't/won't answer the simple question. For the millionth time:


They keep dodging, confusing, obfuscating. But you can't run from the alter ego that you joined. So answer:

Go try your alter ego game at Fedex. Tell them that you will fly the A380 for less and start with zero seniority. How do you think that will go over?

Oh, but you would "like" your job at Fedexg0jet. It wouldn't be ok there, and its not ok here.

[quote=rsspilot]Im answering your question Redbook.....not yes...but HELL YES if they offered me a job. I have no love for unions.....they have done nothing but hurt. Tell me the good they have done and dont say stupid things like insurance and profit sharing and days off because last time I checked every major corporation such as Xerox, HP, Dell, Microsoft, and others offer these. Guess what, no union.[/quote]

 

[AirCobra]

Redbook,
How does FedEx and UPS contracting out flying to other companies fit in with your example. If Fed Ex contracts out with another cargo airline, say CAT, to fly packages along its route structure in 727's, a plane FedEx pilots operate, are the CAT pilots then taking away work from FedEx pilots? Should the CAT pilots then be considered scabs beacuse they are taking flying from FedEx guys and doing it for much less money? Since other pilots are flying FedEx routes for less money, FedEx does not have to hire more guys. So by your standard is anyone doing any contract flying a scab?

 

[Crzipilot]

Well the difference is, and not positive with Fedex, but UPS/Emery used to have a scope which, certain times of year, due to the heavy influx of cargo, they could bring in contract lift. Emery had a more liberal scope, UPS I believe was pretty much just for the Xmass sort. So it was allowed, and it was done, and provided a little more stability to their workforce. Not the typical hire in Aug, Furlough in Feb cycle most Non-skeds are afflicted with.

 

[purduedchi]

We are not talking about contracting out flying. Contracting out flying when demand exceeds supply is one thing...the formation of G0Jet is different. Trans States created a previously dissolved holdings company, moved TSA underneath that holdings company, and then formed GJ under that same holdings company. Now, GJ has a much lower payscale on average (they basically get paid 75 cents more an hour with no block or better to fly an airplane with capacity for up to 20 more seats), thus they get the growth and TSA furloughs. Everyone at TSA is now a TSH employee, all except the pilots and flight attendants. The traing department goes back and forth, teaching either GJ one week, and TSA the next. Basically, it would be like FedEx creating a new carrier (not contracting out) to fly a bigger airplane...let's just say the A380 for the same price as your MD-11. Fed Ex pilots probably wouldn't stand for this...and neither do the TSA pilots. That is what this is all about.

 

[AirCobra]

In the example I used, which I think is what really happens, FedEx contracts out a company to do its flying for less money than it pays its pilots. If CAT flies a 727 from MEM to DEN its not over capacity, its FedEx paying less money than it would have to pay its own 727 crews if they did the same route. They could add 727 flights but why, when its pilots make 100,000 a year and a CAT pilot makes 60,000 a year to do the same job. Just like TSA flying ORD to RIC instead of United mainline. I just don't see how calling a Go Jet guy a scab when TSA does the same thing to United and CAT does the same to FedEx pilots. Everyone is a scab then. So TSA created a new carrier. TSA flies with United routes with United colors and uses Uniteds reservation system, ramp agents, and CSR's right? What am I missing?

 

[redbook]

We are not talking about contracting out flying. Contracting out flying when demand exceeds supply is one thing...the formation of G0Jet is different. Trans States created a previously dissolved holdings company, moved TSA underneath that holdings company, and then formed GJ under that same holdings company. Now, GJ has a much lower payscale on average (they basically get paid 75 cents more an hour with no block or better to fly an airplane with capacity for up to 20 more seats), thus they get the growth and TSA furloughs. Everyone at TSA is now a TSH employee, all except the pilots and flight attendants. The traing department goes back and forth, teaching either GJ one week, and TSA the next. Basically, it would be like FedEx creating a new carrier (not contracting out) to fly a bigger airplane...let's just say the A380 for the same price as your MD-11. Fed Ex pilots probably wouldn't stand for this...and neither do the TSA pilots. That is what this is all about.

Thanks purduedchi. I thought it was clear, but you definitely spelled it out nicely.

 

[Philerup]

Don't forget that TSA couldn't get the 70 seat growth because they fly for American. American has a scope clause that will not allow anything over 50 seats on TSA property. Therefore they had to create TSH in order to get the flying on a seperate certificate.

 

[IHateMgmt]

Hey AirCobra, if you don't get the point they are making after having it spelled out for a second time...well, you're pretty dense about this sort of thing. It's tempting to try to re-word it again for you, but something tells me it'll just be lost on ya. Whether or not your morals and redbook and purduechi's morals agree is one issue, but these guys are spelling out the facts, you should at least be able to ackknowledge that.

 

[U-I pilot]

TSA could have easily made two "cooperative" companies like CHQ/Republic/Shuttle america and made it all work, but they wanted it for the price of peanuts. The TSA group said no. Company made no counter offer and did their own thing. Great company negotiations...... The management COULD have made a more reasonable offer but they chose not to because all they cared about was the $$ on the bottom line .... It was a poor mgt. decision all around..... cant blame the TSA pilots.

 

[flyer172r]

Don't forget that TSA couldn't get the 70 seat growth because they fly for American. American has a scope clause that will not allow anything over 50 seats on TSA property. Therefore they had to create TSH in order to get the flying on a seperate certificate.

A seperate certificate was necessary but a seperate seniority list was not. Management never once sat down with their own pilots to have a real negotiation, they just threw out some POS offer they knew would get rejected so they could say"we tried."

 

[Philerup]

The management COULD have made a more reasonable offer but they chose not to because all they cared about was the $$ on the bottom line

You do realize that the only thing any management in the world is paid to do is care about the $$. They are not a benevolent association for the betterment of pilots, they are modern American management, profit is king. It is a crappy situation, but management truly has no duty to offer you or anyone any more than they think is necessary. You either take it or leave it. TSA left it, good for them for taking a stand. However, in todays market where regionals are stagnating and upgrades are few and far between, they had to know there would be plenty of people who would jump at the chance. Do you really think other pilots who need the time are going to sacrifice advancing their career for the sake of the TSA pilot group? I do not work for GO, what do I get out of not going there, a clean conscience? Please, I work night freight, they beat the crap out of me. After a while service to self becomes way more important than standing up for ideals, especially when the entire industry is giving paycuts and concessions to try and get more flying. Not to mention those that PFT and sell out, contrary to the threats, still get ahead of those who have worked for it.

 

[IHateMgmt]

You do realize that the only thing any management in the world is paid to do is care about the $$. They are not a benevolent association for the betterment of pilots, they are modern American management, profit is king.

Sure, but there is a difference between Wal-Mart having that attitude and an airline having that attitude. SAFETY! DOES ANYBODY CARE ABOUT SAFETY ANYMORE?!

 

[IHateMgmt]

Please, I work night freight, they beat the crap out of me. After a while service to self becomes way more important than standing up for ideals, especially when the entire industry is giving paycuts and concessions to try and get more flying.

Yeah, you work night freight... been there done that. Don't go getting all self-righteous. Do you really think you are the only one who has had to pay their dues? I wish there were more people in this world with a backbone. It's just sad...

 

[oceandude]

I matter, therefore everything i do matters. and so and so................people i love matter, you on the other hand do not matter to me (insert your cry baby name here______).

 

[great cornholio]

In the example I used, which I think is what really happens, FedEx contracts out a company to do its flying for less money than it pays its pilots. If CAT flies a 727 from MEM to DEN its not over capacity, its FedEx paying less money than it would have to pay its own 727 crews if they did the same route. They could add 727 flights but why, when its pilots make 100,000 a year and a CAT pilot makes 60,000 a year to do the same job. Just like TSA flying ORD to RIC instead of United mainline. I just don't see how calling a Go Jet guy a scab when TSA does the same thing to United and CAT does the same to FedEx pilots. Everyone is a scab then. So TSA created a new carrier. TSA flies with United routes with United colors and uses Uniteds reservation system, ramp agents, and CSR's right? What am I missing?

Im sure you wont get this either, but lets try. Lets say Fedex decides to "buy" CAT and then decides not to staff CAT with Fedex pilots. Then Fedex decides to start selling some of the Fedex 727s to CAT. Now Fedex has less planes and needs to furlough. On the other hand CAT has more planes and needs to hire. You would have to agree that, that would be a pretty messed up situation....right??? Well thats kinda (not exactly, but looks like GJ will have 145s on their certificate by the end of Aug, and TSA just "parked" 2 145s this month) is going on with the whole TSA and GJ thing. Hope that clears things up.

 

[theo]

Im sure you wont get this either, but lets try. Lets say Fedex decides to "buy" CAT and then decides not to staff CAT with Fedex pilots. Then Fedex decides to start selling some of the Fedex 727s to CAT. Now Fedex has less planes and needs to furlough. On the other hand CAT has more planes and needs to hire. You would have to agree that, that would be a pretty messed up situation....right??? Well thats kinda (not exactly, but looks like GJ will have 145s on their certificate by the end of Aug, and TSA just "parked" 2 145s this month) is going on with the whole TSA and GJ thing. Hope that clears things up.

I have not responded to a silly go jet thread for a while now. I grew tired of the game. But I just love this response. He makes up a scenario that doesnt exist to "kinda " make his point than points out that that same made up scenario could , but "not exactly" be what Go Jet is all about. Therefore Go Jet is deserving of all the bad thoughts we can send their way. You guys at TSA who beat this dead horse really oughta get a clue.

I will say it again. MOST pilots in this industry see no difference between Go Jet and any other regional airline that exists today. They all do the same things, have the same issues and will act the same in the future. I say good luick to anyone seeking a job at Go Jet. It probably will be one of the growing airlines in the future with upgrades and opportunity in a shrinking pool of upgrades and opportunity. Despite the rhetoric from the anti Go Jet zealots on this board there probably arent 200 pilots in the world who give a rats azz about this little airline and the miserable little group here at Flight Info who continually try to make an issue where none exists.

 

[temcgrew]

He makes up a scenario that doesnt exist to "kinda " make his point than points out that that same made up scenario could , but "not exactly" be what Go Jet is all about. Therefore Go Jet is deserving of all the bad thoughts we can send their way. You guys at TSA who beat this dead horse really oughta get a clue.

I will say it again. MOST pilots in this industry see no difference between Go Jet and any other regional airline that exists today. They all do the same things, have the same issues and will act the same in the future. I say good luick to anyone seeking a job at Go Jet. It probably will be one of the growing airlines in the future with upgrades and opportunity in a shrinking pool of upgrades and opportunity. Despite the rhetoric from the anti Go Jet zealots on this board there probably arent 200 pilots in the world who give a rats azz about this little airline and the miserable little group here at Flight Info who continually try to make an issue where none exists.

Sad response, the example of FEDEX doing this is right on. I believe you have it wrong. I think there are only a few Pro-G0jet pilots on this board, some being management trying to make it easier to hire G0jet pilots, while at the same time, furloughing TSA pilots. Most people do care, I'm not a zealot, just a guy on the cusp of loosing a job.

 

[scarlet]

theo you are correct only ones that care should be bashing skywest for not voting a union in--GOjets DID---no it is not ALPA--it is better TEAMSTERS...

 

[PCL_128]

In the example I used, which I think is what really happens, FedEx contracts out a company to do its flying for less money than it pays its pilots. If CAT flies a 727 from MEM to DEN its not over capacity, its FedEx paying less money than it would have to pay its own 727 crews if they did the same route. They could add 727 flights but why, when its pilots make 100,000 a year and a CAT pilot makes 60,000 a year to do the same job. Just like TSA flying ORD to RIC instead of United mainline. I just don't see how calling a Go Jet guy a scab when TSA does the same thing to United and CAT does the same to FedEx pilots. Everyone is a scab then. So TSA created a new carrier. TSA flies with United routes with United colors and uses Uniteds reservation system, ramp agents, and CSR's right? What am I missing?

The difference is that the United and FedEx pilots voted on scope language that allowed this limited outsourcing of flying under certain circumstances (peak flying for holidays in FedEx's case, seat configuration in UAL's case). The TSA contract, on the other hand, states that all flying is to be done by pilots on the TSA seniority list. They never voted to allow any outsourcing of their flying. The management pukes just got lucky enough to find a judge that would allow this crap to happen even though the intent of the contract language is clear.

 

[Philerup]

Don't go getting all self-righteous. Do you really think you are the only one who has had to pay their dues? I wish there were more people in this world with a backbone. I

I would ask you kindly to not tell me how "get". It truly has nothing to do with being self righteous. I have been flying freight for the past three years, it is the end of the industry I chose. I have more than paid my dues. It also has nothing to do with backbone either, it is so easy to throw insults on an anonymous board. What it all boils down to is that there are a lot of people in worse situations than you or me. These people look at GO as a way out, an opportunity to rapidly advance and pull themselves out of their rut. All I am saying is that the pilots at TSA should have known that this was the predictable outcome. Management was never going to negotiate, they didn't have to. They gave you an ultimatum, as was their right, and you chose a path.

Furthermore, using safety as an argument is neither here nor there. If cost cutting affected safety, we would be having more crashes, not less. I have looked at the pay scales and they are within a few dollars here or there as anyone else. I know they do not have block or better. However, you cannot seriously argue that two dollars an hour affects safety. In closing, Go jet does matter. It is going to show that people in this economy are willing to brave insults and condemnation to get ahead. It is going to show that phantom threats are meaningless. Like I said, everyone has watched as all the PFTers have advanced on up with their sins forgiven. People see real live scabs at the majors. The hated scumbag airline this week is the place to be next year. I have been reading this forum for five years and nothing changes. Someone gets growth, everyone calls them whores, two years later everyone else is wishing they would have ignored flightinfo and gotten on board.

 

[temcgrew]

These people look at GO as a way out, an opportunity to rapidly advance and pull themselves out of their rut.

So you get out of your rut by digging one for the TSA pilots. We would not be in a rut right now were it not for our company furloughing and hiring replacement workers.

Go ahead and get on board for the great growth that this wonderfull management is giving you over their own employees. Why do you think they will not drag you through the mud and create another rut for your life?

When that happens, which airline will you run to? There will come a time when you will have to come in at the bottom of a seniority list again, hopefully when I leave TSA, I will be able to prevent that from happening.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR USING ME AND THE OTHER TSA PILOTS AS A STEPPING STONE FOR YOUR GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO GET IN ON THE GROUND FLOOR.

 

[theo]

So you get out of your rut by digging one for the TSA pilots. We would not be in a rut right now were it not for our company furloughing and hiring replacement workers.

Go ahead and get on board for the great growth that this wonderfull management is giving you over their own employees. Why do you think they will not drag you through the mud and create another rut for your life?

When that happens, which airline will you run to? There will come a time when you will have to come in at the bottom of a seniority list again, hopefully when I leave TSA, I will be able to prevent that from happening.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR USING ME AND THE OTHER TSA PILOTS AS A STEPPING STONE FOR YOUR GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO GET IN ON THE GROUND FLOOR.

I truly do not want anything bad to happen to anyone in the industry. No one should be happy when another person loses a job through no fault of their own. But you can't blame Go Jet for the troubles of Trans States Airlines. They are two seperate companies and that has been to the NMB and confirmed. It has not been challenged by ALPA in court so again even they agree they have NO RIGHT to anything Go Jet does or will do.

You have a right to be upset about what is happening at TSA but you are still making a connection to Go Jet that just does not exist. The problem with blaming others for your problems usually means that you are no closer to really solving your problem. Good luck with your problems but I still will not accept your argument that somehow Go Jet is in any way responsible for what is happening at TSA. You simply have no proof to back up your argument. Just opinions, like everyone else.

 

[oceandude]

hmmmm.........i hear brain cells firing.......nahhhhhhhh!

 

[D'Angelo]

It doesn't matter what your scope says. Go-Jet is a different company. You had the chance and decided not to go there. That is your right. Just don't get upset. Sure your intentions were noble this simply isn't the right time in the industry to try and fight for something. Call back in about 5 years maybe that golden ticket called a pilot shortage will finally appear.

 

[TSA ERJ]

Well theo, you must not speak with other pilots very often if you don't think there are even 200 that care. I am approached all the time by other pilots wishing their best and their own choice words about those who decided to help management harm another pilot group. And, as I jumpseat back and forth to work, the Southwest pilots who see my badge backer have similar things to say.

The GJ pilots are opportunists who will screw you and everyone else in the industry just as they did the TSA pilots. Each of them are as responsible as management for all of this as they sought out and chose employment at an alter ego carrier. An airline that was common knowledge in the industry as being formed to whip-saw. They are enablers of management and have no integrity.

They should have said NO.

 

[theo]

Well theo, you must not speak with other pilots very often if you don't think there are even 200 that care. I am approached all the time by other pilots wishing their best and their own choice words about those who decided to help management harm another pilot group. And, as I jumpseat back and forth to work, the Southwest pilots who see my badge backer have similar things to say.

The GJ pilots are opportunists who will screw you and everyone else in the industry just as they did the TSA pilots. Each of them are as responsible as management for all of this as they sought out and chose employment at an alter ego carrier. An airline that was common knowledge in the industry as being formed to whip-saw. They are enablers of management and have no integrity.

They should have said NO.

More opinion,,just no facts.

 

[purduedchi]

Facts... ok, here are some facts

1) GJ was started by all former management pilots of TSA

2) Everyoneone at the training center is now a Trans States Holdings employee. That means payroll, records, insurance, etc. in order to streamline operations (Separate companies huh!)

3) SAT flying has all been shifted to GJ for the most part...hence more reduction in TSA flying

4) GJ was formed to fly 70 seat airplanes...when then the need to put a 50 seater on the certificate. TSA already has that...oh yeah, thats right...Your cheaper and don't mind undercutting from within your own company

5) GJ gets paid less than industry average for a 70 seater...this also includes the paycuts of places like Comair.

6) GJ gets paid only scheduled block time...and don't give me this story about the blocks being padded to make up for not having block or better. thats BS and you know it...the blocks are padded because its ORD and IAD.

7) GJ tried to illegally solicit Teamsters at first...they have since done it legally though

8) This is the same Teamsters division, or at least same representative that is there for TSA flight attendants...look at that wonderful job he's done there

9) A number of other carriers have written letter to the Teamsters expressing their displeasure with Teamsters representing GJ (Horizon is the one that I can think of off the top of my head)

10) GJ still operates without a contract...work rules, that can be changed at any time

Facts...there are 10 quick ones that I can come up with in 5 minutes time

 

[100LL... Again!]

In closing, Go jet does matter. It is going to show that people in this economy are willing to brave insults and condemnation to get ahead. It is going to show that phantom threats are meaningless. Like I said, everyone has watched as all the PFTers have advanced on up with their sins forgiven. People see real live scabs at the majors. The hated scumbag airline this week is the place to be next year. I have been reading this forum for five years and nothing changes. Someone gets growth, everyone calls them whores, two years later everyone else is wishing they would have ignored flightinfo and gotten on board.

This post should pretty much end the discussion. Everything else is just noise.

Recognize yourself in there, PCL 128, you little weasel?

 

[h25b]

Facts... ok, here are some facts

1) GJ was started by all former management pilots of TSA

So what ??? Companies are started every day from ex-pats from many companies.

2) Everyoneone at the training center is now a Trans States Holdings employee. That means payroll, records, insurance, etc. in order to streamline operations (Separate companies huh!)

You may not like it, and yes it stinks, but it's good enough for the NMB to think so.

3) SAT flying has all been shifted to GJ for the most part...hence more reduction in TSA flying

What did you think was going to happen ? Duh ...

4) GJ was formed to fly 70 seat airplanes...when then the need to put a 50 seater on the certificate. TSA already has that...oh yeah, thats right...Your cheaper and don't mind undercutting from within your own company

Again, pretty much as expected from a operation like TSA...

5) GJ gets paid less than industry average for a 70 seater...this also includes the paycuts of places like Comair.

Payrates are pretty much industry average these days. It's the work rules that are below industry average. Again, par for the course.

6) GJ gets paid only scheduled block time...and don't give me this story about the blocks being padded to make up for not having block or better. thats BS and you know it...the blocks are padded because its ORD and IAD.

Yep, it's a HK run operation.

7) GJ tried to illegally solicit Teamsters at first...they have since done it legally though

Who cares ??? They have a union.

8) This is the same Teamsters division, or at least same representative that is there for TSA flight attendants...look at that wonderful job he's done there

Same could be said about ALPA...

9) A number of other carriers have written letter to the Teamsters expressing their displeasure with Teamsters representing GJ (Horizon is the one that I can think of off the top of my head)

I'm sure those letters hit the round file.

10) GJ still operates without a contract...work rules, that can be changed at any time

Why would you expect them to secure a contract any time soon ???

Facts...there are 10 quick ones that I can come up with in 5 minutes time

Thanks for the 10 facts. Now maybe you could explain what they have to do with the anything. By being a part of the collective bargaining process you choose to live or die within the confines of the system of collective bargaining. It's just seems to me now that the system of collective bargaining has run its course and you have been dealt a significant kick in the shorts you now want to circumvent that methodology and the whole world is supposed to go along with whatever BS you spew.

Here's some facts that matter.

1. There are far too many pilots than available positions. The whole point of a labor union is to artificially sway the numbers back in favor of labor.

2. You're crazy if you think for one minute that some type of pilot embargo against GJ's will ensue from the scab name calling and jumpseat war threats.

3. The NMB rule against ALPA on this one.

4. The 50 seat market will dwindle and the corresponding pilot jobs at TSA will go as well. Pretty predictable and any union worth its salt would've presented this as a likely scenario.

 

[FlyHIToo]

TSA could have easily made two "cooperative" companies like CHQ/Republic/Shuttle america and made it all work, but they wanted it for the price of peanuts. The TSA group said no. Company made no counter offer and did their own thing. Great company negotiations...... The management COULD have made a more reasonable offer but they chose not to because all they cared about was the $$ on the bottom line .... It was a poor mgt. decision all around..... cant blame the TSA pilots.

U-I pilot... Before you got out of High School.... CHQ Teamsters saw the importance of signing a CBA that combined the CHQ/Republic and all other flying that Republic Holdings could do. Their payrates were not great, but they (CHQ/IBT) saw the importance of securing the 51+ market to maintian growth into the future. TSA ALPA did not, and now the pilots at TSA, along with the 50 seat market industry wide, are a shrinking force.

The offer that the company made to TSA MEC, had the same rates as CHQ pays now.

TSA ALPA MEC should have learned from the CHQ IBT.

You are right... You can't blame the pilots at TSA, they were misrepresented by their ALPA MEC.