Why ALPA fails

[N2264J]

Forty pilot leaders from mainline airlines in the United States and Canada accepted the invitation of ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, to discuss ongoing negotiations along with goals and patterns for the next round of collective bargaining with management. The meeting took place at ALPA headquarters in Washington, D.C., on July 26-27.

In addition to ALPA MEC representatives from America West, Continental, Delta, FedEx, Midwest, Northwest, United, and US Airways, ALPA welcomed representatives from the Air Canada Pilots Association, the Allied Pilots Association (American Airlines), the Frontier Airlines Pilots Association, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, and the National Pilots Association (AirTran).

You can't call them "regionals" anymore unless the "region" is defined as the United States. The state-of-the-art equipment we fly can service both coasts on a single trip. But I think it's interesting that our union invites all the "big airplane" drivers to such an important strategy session as bargaining goals and objectives including Frontier, American, Southwest and AirTran while none of smaller companies have a seat at the table even though a few, Comair, ASA, Eagle, Continental Express, PSA, Air Wisconsin, Piedmont etc. are ALPA members.

 

[TWA Dude]

We are indeed all professional pilots however the strategic goals between mainline and non-mainline differ substantially. You know well that the non-mainlines exist at the whim of their mainline codeshare's decisions. So ALPA now faces a situation whereby not only do mainlines compete against each other but the non-mainlines compete against thier mainlines and each other. I frankly don't know how any union can bring all these entities together. To paraphrase Churchill, ALPA is the worst union in the world, except for all the rest.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Forty pilot leaders from mainline airlines in the United States and Canada accepted the invitation of ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, to discuss ongoing negotiations along with goals and patterns for the next round of collective bargaining with management. The meeting took place at ALPA headquarters in Washington, D.C., on July 26-27.

In addition to ALPA MEC representatives from America West, Continental, Delta, FedEx, Midwest, Northwest, United, and US Airways, ALPA welcomed representatives from the Air Canada Pilots Association, the Allied Pilots Association (American Airlines), the Frontier Airlines Pilots Association, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, and the National Pilots Association (AirTran).

You can't call them "regionals" anymore unless the "region" is defined as the United States. The state-of-the-art equipment we fly can service both coasts on a single trip. But I think it's interesting that our union invites all the "big airplane" drivers to such an important strategy session as bargaining goals and objectives including Frontier, American, Southwest and AirTran while none of smaller companies have a seat at the table even though a few, Comair, ASA, Eagle, Continental Express, PSA, Air Wisconsin, Piedmont etc. are ALPA members.

Flamebait. Donnning fireproof suit and PBE for when Joe Merchant sobers up enough to reply.

 

[ASARJMan]

Flamebait. Donnning fireproof suit and PBE for when Joe Merchant sobers up enough to reply.

Yeah, where is that sailor boy? Haven't seen his older GF (aka voice of reason) either lately. Wonder what those two think about SKYW matching ASA's Section 13, and 70 seat pay? Kinda takes alot out of their silly argument about ASA being too expensive to compete doesn't it?

VOTED IN FAVOR!

 

[~~~^~~~]

We are indeed all professional pilots however the strategic goals between mainline and non-mainline differ substantially. You know well that the non-mainlines exist at the whim of their mainline codeshare's decisions. So ALPA now faces a situation whereby not only do mainlines compete against each other but the non-mainlines compete against thier mainlines and each other. I frankly don't know how any union can bring all these entities together.

Scope. Let pilots bind their companies to their flying.

ALPA's apartied system of representation has created this mess. ALPA simply needs to return to what worked in the past - representing all members to raise this profession together.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I think it's interesting that our union invites all the "big airplane" drivers to such an important strategy session as bargaining goals and objectives including Frontier, American, Southwest and AirTran while none of smaller companies have a seat at the table even though a few, Comair, ASA, Eagle, Continental Express, PSA, Air Wisconsin, Piedmont etc. are ALPA members.

It is more than interesting - it should be the beginning of decertification at the carriers that find themselves locked out of their own union.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

It is more than interesting - it should be the beginning of decertification at the carriers that find themselves locked out of their own union.

LOL! Nice try! Locked out? You need to be in science fiction movie production! Mostly because it appears that you are from another planet!

 

[737 Pylt]

Forty pilot leaders from mainline airlines in the United States and Canada accepted the invitation of ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, to discuss ongoing negotiations along with goals and patterns for the next round of collective bargaining with management. The meeting took place at ALPA headquarters in Washington, D.C., on July 26-27.

In addition to ALPA MEC representatives from America West, Continental, Delta, FedEx, Midwest, Northwest, United, and US Airways, ALPA welcomed representatives from the Air Canada Pilots Association, the Allied Pilots Association (American Airlines), the Frontier Airlines Pilots Association, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association, and the National Pilots Association (AirTran).

You can't call them "regionals" anymore unless the "region" is defined as the United States. The state-of-the-art equipment we fly can service both coasts on a single trip. But I think it's interesting that our union invites all the "big airplane" drivers to such an important strategy session as bargaining goals and objectives including Frontier, American, Southwest and AirTran while none of smaller companies have a seat at the table even though a few, Comair, ASA, Eagle, Continental Express, PSA, Air Wisconsin, Piedmont etc. are ALPA members.

N:
Not trying to pick a fight with you, and I agree with what you stated there. That being said, the level of representation seems to be ok to me. I just got my recent ALPA rag. In it, it shows JC Lawson, CMR MEC as an EVP. IF only the big airplane drivers are being represented, what gives there?
737

 

[~~~^~~~]

LOL! Nice try! Locked out? You need to be in science fiction movie production! Mostly because it appears that you are from another planet!

What would be your description of not being allowed to attend meetings? Do you like the term ALPA Apartied better?

Forty pilot leaders from mainline airlines in the United States and Canada accepted the invitation of ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, to discuss ongoing negotiations along with goals and patterns for the next round of collective bargaining with management.

Small Jet Carriers are NOT INVITED

 

[~~~^~~~]

N:
Not trying to pick a fight with you, and I agree with what you stated there. That being said, the level of representation seems to be ok to me. I just got my recent ALPA rag. In it, it shows JC Lawson, CMR MEC as an EVP. IF only the big airplane drivers are being represented, what gives there?
737

He is a token minority. Of course the level of representation is fine by you - your reps get to run the union.

 

[Peter Griffin]

This is yet another reason why NOT to have ALPA represent regional carriers. CONFLICT OF INTEREST.

 

[737 Pylt]

He is a token minority. Of course the level of representation is fine by you - your reps get to run the union.

Feel free to leave alpa any time you want to....Nobody's keeping a gun to your head! Of course you would have nobody to blame all your problems on then!
737

 

[Scope out RJ's]

What would be your description of not being allowed to attend meetings? Do you like the term ALPA Apartied better?

I call it rjdc propoganda!

Small Jet Carriers are NOT INVITED

Did you ever think that maybe your crusade of trying to bankrupt the union is doing more harm than foul?

 

[N2264J]

I call it rjdc propoganda!

Did you ever think that maybe your crusade of trying to bankrupt the union is doing more harm than foul?
________________
SCOPE OUT!

So how's that scope working out for ya, brother?

 

[~~~^~~~]

It is not working for me. How about you?

Scope which doesn't include those pilots performing the brand's flying is ineffective.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Feel free to leave alpa any time you want to....Nobody's keeping a gun to your head! Of course you would have nobody to blame all your problems on then!
737

You may get your wish.... From all appearances the RJDC will win and unfortunately from all appearances ALPA has no intention of representing its membership. Unless something changes ALPA will have nothing to offer us. Of course, if we leave we take your MEC's remote control over our bargaining with us.

 

[737 Pylt]

You may get your wish....

Then who will you blame all your problems on?

From all appearances the RJDC will win and unfortunately from all appearances ALPA has no intention of representing its membership. Unless something changes ALPA will have nothing to offer us. Of course, if we leave we take your MEC's remote control over our bargaining with us.

Baghdad bob speaket! Don't go spending all you $millions yet there sport!
Nobody has or wants control over your bargaining, its just another way for your lies to keep up your pathetic plight!
737

 

[Scope out RJ's]

So how's that scope working out for ya, brother?

Obviously more effective than your extortion lawsuit!

 

[N2264J]

Obviously more effective than your extortion lawsuit!
__________________
SCOPE OUT!

Can you elaborate?

 

[PCL_128]

You may get your wish.... From all appearances the RJDC will win.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" - The Wizard of Oz

"There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never!" - Badhdad Bob

These two men seem to have the same grasp on reality that you do.

Regional carriers were not invited to these discussions because the topics discussed were not material to regional pilots. Our problems, goals, and objectives are not the same as those of the mainline pilots. I'm not any happier than you are about the apparent death of the "brand scope" idea, but inviting regional pilots to this meeting would have accomplished nothing. As usual, you are just looking for something to complain about.

 

[N2264J]

Forty pilot leaders from mainline airlines in the United States and Canada accepted the invitation of ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, to discuss ongoing negotiations along with goals and patterns for the next round of collective bargaining with management.

Regional carriers were not invited to these discussions because the topics discussed were not material to regional pilots. Our problems, goals, and objectives are not the same as those of the mainline pilots.

Are you kidding? We're all commercial airline pilots and have exactly the same issues.

Your "union" invited non-ALPA pilot groups while ALPA members, like Pinnacle were shunned. Are we an embarrassment to the people in the big house in the presents of their "mainline" friends?
How can you be expected to adequately represent your pilots interests at Pinnacle when you're not even privy to this important strategy session?

 

[MECH]

And how do any of you forum experts know that brand scope was not talked about?

 

[atrdriver]

It is not working for me. How about you?

Scope which doesn't include those pilots performing the brand's flying is ineffective.

Since you have been at ASA we have grown from 850 pilots to over 1700 pilots. We have more and bigger aircraft then we did when you got hired. I would say that scope is working quite well for you. It may not if Skywest REALLY starts taking our airplanes, but until that happens, I would say that mainline scope has worked out very well for ASA.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Mech: Brand Scope, or any Scope for that matter which was discussed without the participation of the ALPA Members performing that flying is invalid.

ATR Driver - We have more airplanes, but they are not bigger. Further, ALPA's denial of our efforts to achieve an agreement with Delta on scope has resulted in a race for the bottom which has resulted in diminished negotiating strength at ASA, as well as the transfer of our airplanes which you incredibly still deny.

When are you going to admit this? Are you waiting for the ATL SkyWest base? Do you not see the loss of ASA's firm orders as a "transfer?" Are you waiting for them to turn off the lights in SLC and displace us in ATL?

I would love to be wrong.....

 

[PCL_128]

Are you kidding? We're all commercial airline pilots and have exactly the same issues.

Really? Are you concerned about your pension being taken away? How about international rest issues and crew compliment? Are you doing many ocean crossings? Do you need to discuss the problems with the transcon turns idea? I'm guessing you don't do too many transcon flights in your RJ. I know I don't.

Again, the issues affecting the mainline pilots in their next round of negotiations are not the same issues that affect us. We are concerned with pay, trip/duty rigs, 401k, commuter clauses, etc... They are concerned with Scope, pensions, international rest rules, etc... We certainly share some issues, but not enough to attend the same conference. Remember, this was a strategy session. The strategy that mainline MECs use isn't the same as MECs for carriers under WO or Fee-for-departure agreements. Stop looking for an issue where there is none. If you want to complain about something, then complain about how the NWA pilots had a real chance for brand scope and blew it. Now that's a real issue to complain about.

How can you be expected to adequately represent your pilots interests at Pinnacle when you're not even privy to this important strategy session?

I'm doing just fine representing the issues and interests of Pinnacle pilots, thank you very much. I don't need to barge in on a mainline strategy session in order to represent our pilots. We have our own strategy session that the mainline pilots aren't invited to. It's called the Fee-For-Departure Task Force. That's what we need to focus on. Not what the mainline guys are going to do about pensions and international relief officers.

 

[N2264J]

Really? Are you concerned about your pension being taken away?

Yes. My defined contribution plan is being taken away.

How about international rest issues and crew compliment? Are you doing many ocean crossings? Do you need to discuss...international rest rules...international relief officers?

No, does Southwest? Frontier? AirTran?

 

[PCL_128]

Yes. My defined contribution plan is being taken away.

That's a big no. There's a big difference between a defined contribution plan and a defined benefit (pension) plan.

No, does Southwest? Frontier? AirTran?

Most of the issues discussed will have little to do with those airlines. However, they were invited because ALPA is making a huge effort towards organizing efforts. I believe over $5 million was earmarked for organization and merger efforts recently. ALPA has been working very closely with both SWAPA and NPA on their contract negotiations, and I believe FAPA has been purchasing many ALPA services also. Allowing them to attend is a great way to allow their reps to see how ALPA functions internally. The ultimate goal is to merge their independent Associations into ALPA. Again, this has nothing to do with the Express carriers and there is no need for us to intrude in matters that really aren't relevant to us.

 

[N2264J]

That's a big no. There's a big difference between a defined contribution plan and a defined benefit (pension) plan.

Both are pensions. Are you saying a Delta pilot losing his pension is a more serious problem to ALPA than a Comair pilot losing his pension?

Again, this has nothing to do with the Express carriers and there is no need for us to intrude in matters that really aren't relevant to us.

Intrude? Irrelevant? Why do you believe bargaining strategy for the next round of negotiations is irrelevant to the smaller carriers? I don't understand how you can properly represent your pilots while seemingly holding them in comtempt.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Flamebait. Donnning fireproof suit and PBE for when Joe Merchant sobers up enough to reply.

There is nothing to add, ALPA's actions speak for themselves.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

Yeah, where is that sailor boy? Haven't seen his older GF (aka voice of reason) either lately. Wonder what those two think about SKYW matching ASA's Section 13, and 70 seat pay? Kinda takes alot out of their silly argument about ASA being too expensive to compete doesn't it?

VOTED IN FAVOR!

First, this is a SAPA proposal, not a company offer. Second, I think it is a fair offer given the environment we are in. I believe we are holding out for a lot more than is in this proposal. Third, I would expect SAPA to get more than ALPA - this is more than just a few dollars here and a few dollars there - this is about not letting ALPA dictate terms to Jerry.

Would the "hardliners" entertain a more moderate proposal in exchange for a single list and an in house union?