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usmc33

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
69
I find it interesting when I read through the 'military transition' postings and read about the military not giving a crap about families as a reson to leave AD and go to the lines. For all you f'd pilots out there, tell me how much the lines care about your families when they let you go with no pay...especially when you've been doing your job to standard and above standard. At least in the MIL, when you're doing your job to par or above and they let you go (RIF), they give you a severance. Feedback should be interesting.
 
Money isn't everything, I know a number of AF pilots turning down up to $300,000 in bonus ($100,000 lump sum) to have family stability i.e. not moving every three years. BTW almost all have continued mil service in guard or reserves.
 
USMC,

You certainly bring up some valid points. However, I have a couple points in the airline lifestyle camp's defense.

First, if you decide you don't like your job in the airlines, you can (sometimes) bid off of certain equipment, or change domiciles, or quit. In the military...well...not so much!

Second, the airlines never imply a "we'll take you of you cradle to grave". Its a BUSINESS, and you walk in knowing the rules. Furloughs can and will happen, and you have to have a backup plan. By contrast, I know quite a few mid 90s captains that had every intention of making the AF a 20 year career, but got RIF'd or passed over along the way. Finding out your career was subject to the whims of a FY budget and end strength requirements dictated by congress was devastating to some guys out there in the force. They were shocked at "losing" a job that they thought was theirs for at least 20 years. Adding to the frustration was many got passed over not because of job performance, but silly things like the lack of Master's degrees or PME. While important points to consider in the someone's professional development, if you are a leader in a world-wide deployable fighter squadron there isn't a lot of extra time for gettng those "squares" accomplished. Many officers took the risks of a military profession gladly, but expected the upside to such a challenging career to be job security. Finding out that even in the military, you are sometimes a number and a figure on a budget sheet really let the wind out of a lot of sails.

In 1997, I had the chance as a senior captain to discuss the matter with then USAFE commander (now Chief of Staff) Mike Myers as part of a retention study/seminar across the CAF. Each flying squadron sent one delegate to the conference, and we presented various complaints, ideas, and suggestions about ways to improve both retention and Q of Life for military aviators. Some of our suggestions came to fruition, others they said were too hard, and yet others they said "get a grip!", but it was a very interesting and frank discussion. I did seem to get a bit of a reaction, however, when I told them that their manning and RIF policies were making guys who NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED leaving take a look at their options, "just in case" they ever got RIF'd. When these guys compared numbers, etc they discovered just how lucrative the airline lifestyle could be, and how flexible the living arrangements were compared to the military lifestyle. Some of these guys left the service, many who had initially joined to make it a long term career. So...my punchline was there own RIFs, etc had been a major reason so many guys had "looked across the fence". Their response dumbfounded me...its was something like "Well...we haven't had to RIF in 2-3 years for pilots, so I really didn't consider that a factor". In my paraphrasing, that went something like "well...we haven't screwed anyone over LATELY, so why would you leave us? I know three years ago we shot down your flight commander and passed over some other great role model officers and friends of yours, but what makes you think we'd do that to YOU?"

Promotions are yet another source of agnst and frustration in the military. No matter how far you go, eventually you find someone you consider less capable than yourself (or your buddy) who gets picked for school, a BTZ promotion, or a choice assignment ahead of you or your bro. Even though you know its the nature of the beast, its d@mned frustrating when it happens to you. Unless you retire as chief of staff, eventually someone tells you "thats as far as you go...". Many guys who have experienced that (and it usually doesn't happen until the senior 0-3/0-4 timeframe) decide that maybe working in seniority based system has some merit, or at the very least provides a lot less stress and mental anguish.

Yeah, the stock market bubble and the 9/11 attacks rocked our little airline world pretty bad. However, if you are still working its a pretty good life. If you have a line number at AA, DAL, or UAL, you will likely get your life back, albeit a little later and maybe for a little (lot?) less pay than before. However, there are still airlines hiring, and if its time to move on there are still places you can find a good job.

As for security...you've heard me before...I would hesitate to make a "clean break" from the military right now, and would do all I could to stay in the ANG/Reserves. Your country will appreciate your service, and you will appreciate the security and options the continuing service will provide. And as long as you aren't trying to be chief of staff, well...the flying and work are pretty darn satisfying.

USMC...if you are still flying and serving in the Corps for 20 years...God Bless you. Our country needs good guys and good officers to protect the nation and keep our armed forces in peak shape. However, as you go up in rank, there is less and less room, and somebody has to leave along the way. For those who decide its time to go, thanks for the service, and the water out here, while not yet warm, may not be as icy cold as you think.
 
usmc33 said:
I find it interesting when I read through the 'military transition' postings and read about the military not giving a crap about families as a reson to leave AD and go to the lines. For all you f'd pilots out there, tell me how much the lines care about your families when they let you go with no pay...especially when you've been doing your job to standard and above standard. At least in the MIL, when you're doing your job to par or above and they let you go (RIF), they give you a severance. Feedback should be interesting.

Sorry USMC, but you are wrong on the airlines providing severance. Most airlines do in fact have what it is called "furlough pay" in their contract. Pilots furloughed from CAL received anywhere from $15,000-$20,000 for their time spent on CAL prior to their furlough.

Sam
 
Clarification

Sam Fisher, I stand corrected. I've never heard of lines paying severance, that's a new one on me.

AlbieF15, and everyone. If you check the "military" forum, you'll see a similar posting on this topic from me. If you look at it, you'll see an explination on why I posed this question. My background is fairly common post 911.

All of your feedback is good and valid. Thanks for the candor.
 
Re: Who cares? - the pilots!

usmc33 said:
For all you f'd pilots out there, tell me how much the lines care about your families when they let you go with no pay...

Management doesn't care (it's not their job), but the pilots at Delta are paying the medical coverage for all our furloughees.
 
The Grass is Greener

I remember saying the same things, and sometimes the points are indeed valid,

but for the most part, the AF was really good in terms of caring. Put it this way:

Supervisors have the power to make a difference...

Often what drives people out the door is bosses that don't care...

(Ops tempo is another issue, but I'm talking about the things individuals have control over, but don't do because it's either too hard or they just don't care)


Plus, everyone brags about the airlines like they are some sort of Utopia, but, for example, I know at least 1879 furloughed USAirways pilots who might have a different perspective now
 

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