What's it gonna take?

[hyflyin]

It doesn't mean experience or competence. How much experience do I have if I fly 1500 hours of VFR pipeline patrol, or 1500 hours of banner towing? Surely that isn't the same experience as someone with 1500 hours who has been flying in the 121 environment in all kinds of weather talking to ATC.

Until you put qualifiers and categories of flight time together, the hours don't mean anything. What matters is the type of flying being done, and the training to get there. Much like the military, someone with 500 hours and specific and targeting training for the 121 world can be much better prepared than someone with 1500 hours of buzzing around towing banners.

But, it doesn't matter what the facts are. Congress passed a law based on the emotions of dead people's families, not facts. Facts are too inconvenient, and crying families are always good politics.

ASA, good dicussion. Having flown with both I will take the banner tow guy 6 days a week. The 7th is a regional jet jockey in the sim. I, most can teach, any yahoo to jerk gear and talk on the radio. What I can't teach you are stick and rudder skills when the wheels are coming off the bus. Maybe he is not fully competent, but he has seen more, made more decisions than those joining the regionals right away. There are of course exceptions to every rule, I'm sure you have flown with a few those too.

Ab initio is coming. Just like in China, they'll sit there jerk gear, talk and the Captain will fly.

As you state, it's a mute point.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

ASA, good dicussion. Having flown with both I will take the banner tow guy 6 days a week. The 7th is a regional jet jockey in the sim. I, most can teach, any yahoo to jerk gear and talk on the radio. What I can't teach you are stick and rudder skills when the wheels are coming off the bus. Maybe he is not fully competent, but he has seen more, made more decisions than those joining the regionals right away. There are of course exceptions to every rule, I'm sure you have flown with a few those too.

Ab initio is coming. Just like in China, they'll sit there jerk gear, talk and the Captain will fly.

As you state, it's a mute point.

Yeah. Ab initio isn't all bad, as long as the screening and training is good. Like you said, we are all along for the ride either way.

 

[ttuite]

A bit ironic to read about all the complaining about the 1500 hour proposed rule. In the late 90's early 2000's you couldn't even get an interview without 1500 hours. BTW the pay was much lower than today, even indexed for inflation. There were plenty of pilots available even during hiring peaks. Why? The big payday at the majors.

Being a commuter pilot is like being an intern. You don't get paid much, get abused, but you get to move on. I get so tired of the whining about the low pay etc. You wonder why the pilots at the majors who have been around for 20 years don't have any sympathy for you? Because they had it much worse. Thing is, they managed to enjoy themselves while they were coming up. Why? because they were passionate about flying and did it for the love of it, not for the money.

I remember flying 8 to 10 legs a day in a turboprop, outstation basing and living in a farm house with 10 other guys (girls), receiving a blast e-mail from USAir stating that under NO circumstances was a pilot to ever stop at the food stamp office while dressed in a uniform, being fined $10.00 if you weren't wearing a hat with your blazer, and only seeing my kids 9 to 10 days a month. Guess what? Other than not seeing my family I loved every minute of it. It was the most fun I have ever had flying.

 

[Flyer1015]

A bit ironic to read about all the complaining about the 1500 hour proposed rule. In the late 90's early 2000's you couldn't even get an interview without 1500 hours. BTW the pay was much lower than today, even indexed for inflation. There were plenty of pilots available even during hiring peaks. Why? The big payday at the majors.

Being a commuter pilot is like being an intern. You don't get paid much, get abused, but you get to move on. I get so tired of the whining about the low pay etc. You wonder why the pilots at the majors who have been around for 20 years don't have any sympathy for you? Because they had it much worse. Thing is, they managed to enjoy themselves while they were coming up. Why? because they were passionate about flying and did it for the love of it, not for the money.

I remember flying 8 to 10 legs a day in a turboprop, outstation basing and living in a farm house with 10 other guys (girls), receiving a blast e-mail from USAir stating that under NO circumstances was a pilot to ever stop at the food stamp office while dressed in a uniform, being fined $10.00 if you weren't wearing a hat with your blazer, and only seeing my kids 9 to 10 days a month. Guess what? Other than not seeing my family I loved every minute of it. It was the most fun I have ever had flying.

Back then, there was some movement and hiring. Now we had Age 65 and the worst recession since the great depression. Regionals were meant as stepping stones to the majors, and now they are becoming career stops. Back then, you had numerous legacy airlines, today there are only 3. Back then, you could get hired at Delta, American, United with 1,500-3,000 hrs total, and at times without any internal connections. We have regional FOs today that have spent 5-10+ years in the right seat, with 5,000-9000+ hrs of SIC time without any TPIC.

 

[Flyer1015]

According to that article it says they are having trouble implementing the rule of 1500 hrs of flight training to get an ATP? First off its 1500 of flight experience not training and that always has been the minimum to obtain an ATP. Freaking moron who wrote the article does not understand what the new rule is to begin with.

@ASA, Did you mean hours do not equal competence? Because it certainly does mean experience.

You can fly 1500 hours or you can fly 1 hr 1500 times. What would be a better candidate, a guy with 1500 hours where all he has done is fly the traffic pattern, day in day out to get his 1500 hours, or a guy with 600 hrs but all of that cross country time in challenging weather, terrain, visibility?

Hours mean experience, until an hour is just repeated over and over again.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Ttuine,

It was fun because you were young and moved on to a career airline. I know guys that have been furloughed from multiple regionals. A buddy of mine just was picked up by Spirt with over 9,000. He was downgraded to FO at his regional. Look at your senoirty list check out the bottom of the list it does not contain youg people. He'll American hasn't hired since 1998!!!!

 

[n757st]

Ttuine,

It was fun because you were young and moved on to a career airline. I know guys that have been furloughed from multiple regionals. A buddy of mine just was picked up by Spirt with over 9,000. He was downgraded to FO at his regional. Look at your senoirty list check out the bottom of the list it does not contain youg people. He'll American hasn't hired since 1998!!!!

2001... but still a long time.

 

[hyflyin]

You can fly 1500 hours or you can fly 1 hr 1500 times. What would be a better candidate, a guy with 1500 hours where all he has done is fly the traffic pattern, day in day out to get his 1500 hours, or a guy with 600 hrs but all of that cross country time in challenging weather, terrain, visibility?

Hours mean experience, until an hour is just repeated over and over again.

How many guys do you know who flew around the pattern 1hr at a time for 1500hrs? You can come up with all of the scenarios you like, lets just be realistic.

Jerking gear for a regional does provide for some experience. It's just very repetitive.

Personally, I like the guys who are making there own decisions, wrong or right, while managing all aspects of the trip. It's just a different time, the quality is still good, but the experience is vastly different.