What this industry needs IMHO.

[Damich]

IMHO the problem with this industry is that the supply of pilots exceeds the demand. I am not trying stir things up but it seems like there are a lot "new" guys/gals that are willing to fly for nothing with the hopes of one day landing that big high paying job. A lot of them were probably convinced to go to one of those fast track aviation schools where they spent a fortune to get their certs and a prized interview with a regional in X amount of months. They soon come to understand that their career aspirations will probably involve many years of poverty and a very poor family life. By then it is too late, the money is spent and the opportunity to pursue another career is gone. What would those individuals have done differently had they known the realities of this industry? What effect would the elimination of thousands of resumes from these "hungry" pilots have on our industry? The point I am trying to make is, why couldn't we (ALPA, non ALPA pilots) pool our resources to run a "Truth about airline pilots" campaign to discourage people from flooding our industry? This could include such information as the rapidly decreasing opportunities to score a major airline pilot position, regional airline pilot pay and quality of life issues (ie commuting when your base closes, starting over at the bottom when changing companies and raising a family by phone). If this theory worked the pilot supply could go down, demand might go up and maybe we could make a liveable wage. Some may disagree with this idea but either way I am interested in your thoughts. Could it become a reality or is it just a pipe dream?

 

[gordon24]

You're just now coming up with this? Jeez, where the f#$k have you been the last couple of years?

 

[((7))]

Pipedream

There will never be a "pilot shortage". There is many senior pilots flying at flag carriers who answered ads in newspapers for pilots with a PVT. Airline trained them to fill the seats. The Regs are not written in stone. When the industry needs pilots the Regs can be changed quickly. The statement- He who has the Gold makes the Golden Rules is the Capitalist system at work. In addition to the above, the feasibility of haveing unlimited H1B Card holders flying is allways a solution. If you don't believe it take a look at the Tech. Industry and compare it to the worldwide supply of pilots who would swim to the US for a 121 job. As long as you have Mommie and Daddies willing to support little juniors, wish to buy a job the proffesion will continue in decline. When Mommy and Daddy say enough is enough, the industry with Alpa included will shuttle in pilots from Russia, S. America, China or Haiti with a resounding statement of Globilization.

 

[Captn]

Take it from me.... a pilot since 1969, there never has been nor will there be in the foreseeable future, any shortage of pilots.

 

[WolfManPack]

Hmmm!!!!

Although I would support what Damich says....

I also believe there is a lot of truth to what (&) says!!!

The bottome line is unity as a pilot group if you are going to try something like a Publicity campaign and quite honestly, as much as I'd like to see this come to fruition, I have to be honest with myself and say that there just is no unity at this time in the airline biz.

For example, I am currently flying with captains that don't give a rat's arse what FO's make their first year because they say "well....we had to go through it so you should have to go through it too". They don't see just how short sighted their approach to this career is and that's only ONE of the things that makes me believe that there is no unity amoung pilots right now.

Just my 2 cents!

 

[DetoXJ]

Although I would support what Damich says....

I also believe there is a lot of truth to what (&) says!!!

The bottome line is unity as a pilot group if you are going to try something like a Publicity campaign and quite honestly, as much as I'd like to see this come to fruition, I have to be honest with myself and say that there just is no unity at this time in the airline biz.

For example, I am currently flying with captains that don't give a rat's arse what FO's make their first year because they say "well....we had to go through it so you should have to go through it too". They don't see just how short sighted their approach to this career is and that's only ONE of the things that makes me believe that there is no unity amoung pilots right now.

Just my 2 cents!

Your the one who took the job knowing darn well what the entry level pay is. Is it your Captains fault that you sold yourslef out by accepting such a substandard paying job. If the up and comers coming out of college refused to accept such substandard wages then mabye new hire pay would go up. I think you should go look yourself in the mirror as opposed to blaming your Captain for how underpaid regional FO's are.

 

[The_Russian]

You can't be angry at someone who takes a "low paying" job at this time. All the pay sux everywhere. From the 1900 to the e190 everyone makes 20 an hour the first year (approx.). You can't "refuse" a job if offered because you have to keep flying.

 

[Damich]

I agree with you guys. It appears that the title of "Airline pilot" will always be highly sought after no matter how bad the pay or quality of life. I must have smoked some pretty good stuff to come up with that one. Thanks for your replies.

 

[Vik]

Here is something told me once that explains it all ...

There has always been a surplus of pilots .. The Wright Brothers invented there airplane, and there were 2 of them and just one plane.



What you've written everyone knows and its always been the case. There will always be more pilots than pilot positions. It will never change because as automation increases, fewer pilots will be needed. Just like the FE was ditched, soon the FO will be ditched or just be a "Captain in training" who gets paid crap because the plane is a single pilot operation. (Scary thought, but it will eventually happen)

IMHO the problem with this industry is that the supply of pilots exceeds the demand. I am not trying stir things up but it seems like there are a lot "new" guys/gals that are willing to fly for nothing with the hopes of one day landing that big high paying job. A lot of them were probably convinced to go to one of those fast track aviation schools where they spent a fortune to get their certs and a prized interview with a regional in X amount of months. They soon come to understand that their career aspirations will probably involve many years of poverty and a very poor family life. By then it is too late, the money is spent and the opportunity to pursue another career is gone. What would those individuals have done differently had they known the realities of this industry? What effect would the elimination of thousands of resumes from these "hungry" pilots have on our industry? The point I am trying to make is, why couldn't we (ALPA, non ALPA pilots) pool our resources to run a "Truth about airline pilots" campaign to discourage people from flooding our industry? This could include such information as the rapidly decreasing opportunities to score a major airline pilot position, regional airline pilot pay and quality of life issues (ie commuting when your base closes, starting over at the bottom when changing companies and raising a family by phone). If this theory worked the pilot supply could go down, demand might go up and maybe we could make a liveable wage. Some may disagree with this idea but either way I am interested in your thoughts. Could it become a reality or is it just a pipe dream?

 

[capt. megadeth]

Here is something told me once that explains it all ...

There has always been a surplus of pilots .. The Wright Brothers invented there airplane, and there were 2 of them and just one plane.



What you've written everyone knows and its always been the case. There will always be more pilots than pilot positions. It will never change because as automation increases, fewer pilots will be needed. Just like the FE was ditched, soon the FO will be ditched or just be a "Captain in training" who gets paid crap because the plane is a single pilot operation. (Scary thought, but it will eventually happen)

I don't agree with you on that eventually there will only be one pilot in the cockpit. If there is, I won't fly in the back. There has to be two to back eachother up.

 

[248to2.8]

If ALPA actually did a campaign to tell the public how little the Regional pilots make it would scare the crap out of them. They wouldn't ever want to fly on a regional aircraft untill they got paid more then the cab driver that takes them to the airport. As for single pilot ops, I think it's only a matter of time. Technology is progressing so fast that soon it will probably be safer to not have a pilot at all. Just need someone up front incase it takes a crap. Just my .02 Hope it doesn't happen, but if the airlines could potentially cut their salaries in half, don't you think they would take a long hard look at that?

 

[cynic]

Flame on!

Or better yet, just require a Master's degree and perfect background to work in 121 ops.

Now flame on about how I don't need to stinkin edumacation to fly!

And to you I say you are 100% correct.

And thats the problem... any dumba$$ with enough money can get an ATP. Moral character??? HAHAHAHA

Sorry guys, but the new model is the regional model and ALPA is useless.

It is what it is. If you are starting out today, expect a year or two of CFI pay, a year or four at a regional below 30K a year, and eventually you will work your way to the 75K a year mark, but that will take 10 years and thats all most of you will ever see.

It sucks!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Or better yet, just require a Master's degree and perfect background to work in 121 ops.

Now flame on about how I don't need to stinkin edumacation to fly!

And to you I say you are 100% correct.

And thats the problem... any dumba$$ with enough money can get an ATP. Moral character??? HAHAHAHA

Sorry guys, but the new model is the regional model and ALPA is useless.

It is what it is. If you are starting out today, expect a year or two of CFI pay, a year or four at a regional below 30K a year, and eventually you will work your way to the 75K a year mark, but that will take 10 years and thats all most of you will ever see.

It sucks!

Yup, you hit the nail squarely on the head.

 

[WolfManPack]

Typical!

Case in point:

DetoXJ said:

Your the one who took the job knowing darn well what the entry level pay is. Is it your Captains fault that you sold yourslef out by accepting such a substandard paying job. If the up and comers coming out of college refused to accept such substandard wages then mabye new hire pay would go up. I think you should go look yourself in the mirror as opposed to blaming your Captain for how underpaid regional FO's are.

Perfect example of the point I was trying to make. This guy obviously think that he's the only one that matters and believes that pilots shouldn't do anything to improve their professional lifestyles. This guy thinks that beyond the first year pay....everything is just dandy and that anybody who attempts to be a problem solver in this industry is just being silly because they signed up for the job and they deserve what he and the rest of them got when they were in those very same shoes.

This response is first and foremost short sighted! He doesn't seem to understand that progress most often is made from the bottom up and not the reverse. But secondly and most importantly what he says is just plain selfish in nature. I explained it this way on another message board. It's like your father saying to you "well little Johnny.....when I was young, we were poor and we couldn't afford anything more than the clothes on our back.....so you just have to suck it up and I'm not going to help your life be better because I had to go through the same thing.......Bah Humbug son!!!" I don't know about you but I don't think most people believe that's the right way to approach life on a personal level and it's not the right way to approach your professional career also!

It's counterproductive to YOU bro and that's what's so funny. It's your little high and mighty "I had to do it so you will have to do it too" attitude is hurting you more than you realize.

While I agree with you that part of the problem is that pilots are willing to take the job at such a low wage but instead of not doing anything about that like seems to be your approach. But guess what...when I wasn't an airline pilot there wasn't much I could do to change the profession. I was on the outside looking in and so rather than hope that everybody else would do the same thing that I was doing and "not take the job **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**it" and that that might work, after losing several years of seniority I might add.....I decided to do something that maybe you haven't thought of. I decided to take a job with an airline and see what I could do to become a problem solver from within the house rather than from the the outside of the house looking in hopelessly. And from the response I've gotten from several of the guys I've flown with it's a good thing I didn't wait because quite frankly there is nothing that is going on within the pilot group as a whole, including ALPA I might add, that persuades me that a plan is underway to change things....especailly the attrocious first year pay!

I can tell you this....I'm willing to work to solve problems that I can control now that I have been hired on as an airline pilot while some guys sit back and think about number one! When I am a 5th year CA I can also promise you that my opinion on starting salaries for FOs and similar compensation issues will still be high on the priority list for me.

However, having said all this, if at some point I believe that the airline business is not profitable enough long term, and I do think that's a distinct possibility,I will defintely get out. I don't want to but I also will do what I have to do to provide a comfortable life for my family.

Listen, I'm not blaming Captains, my example I used was only that....an example of a problem that I see in the industry. I didn't intend for it to be a Captain bashing post as I'm sure most people who read it understood.

What I am saying though is that at least the guy who started this thread and others like him, and yes I throw myself in that bunch, are willing to do be creative and think about how we might change our circumstance.

If you want to sit back and do nothing then go ahead....but that's just not me! I'm just glad our airline pilot forefathers were a different breed from you!

Peace!

 

[DetoXJ]

Case in point:


While I agree with you that part of the problem is that pilots are willing to take the job at such a low wage but instead of not doing anything about that like seems to be your approach. But guess what...when I wasn't an airline pilot there wasn't much I could do to change the profession. I was on the outside looking in and so rather than hope that everybody else would do the same thing that I was doing and "not take the job **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**it" and that that might work, after losing several years of seniority I might add.....I decided to do something that maybe you haven't thought of. I decided to take a job with an airline and see what I could do to become a problem solver from within the house rather than from the the outside of the house looking in hopelessly. And from the response I've gotten from several of the guys I've flown with it's a good thing I didn't wait because quite frankly there is nothing that is going on within the pilot group as a whole, including ALPA I might add, that persuades me that a plan is underway to change things....especailly the attrocious first year pay!

I can tell you this....I'm willing to work to solve problems that I can control now that I have been hired on as an airline pilot while some guys sit back and think about number one! When I am a 5th year CA I can also promise you that my opinion on starting salaries for FOs and similar compensation issues will still be high on the priority list for me.

However, having said all this, if at some point I believe that the airline business is not profitable enough long term, and I do think that's a distinct possibility,I will defintely get out. I don't want to but I also will do what I have to do to provide a comfortable life for my family.


Peace!

Wolfman, we did do something to improve 1st year pay. It was the #1 priority goal for our new contract. Compared to our old contract, Mesaba got a 100% increase for new hire F/O pay over the life of our contract. Wilson polling results had scope and FO pay as the top 2 priorities for our new contract. When I was polled 3 times I always ranked them #1 & #2 myself.

Why would I not want my FO's to make more $$$ and to get a faster uipgrade? That is simply foolish of you to say that is my stance. I upgraded in a year so it has nothing to do with FO's having to pay the same "Dues" that I paid. They have already payed a lot more "Dues" than me and there is nothing more I would rather see than Mesaba's senior FO's get their much overdue and deserved upgrades!

What I disagree with is your mentality that you seem to think Captains are to blame for low FO pay and that if we were to get involved more it would be different. I am an ALPA volunteer and I do my best to get to the meeting when I am off. What I find interesting is that it is always the same faces at the ALPA meetings. The biggest moaners and compainers are never present and never get involved. They, like you, just like to point fingers and place blame for the discontent. It was like pulling teeth to get the latest DTW Captain Rep position filled which just shows that nobody wants to get involved. You talk the talk like so many do about how they are going to change things but just like everybody else, it's all just talk.

 

[WolfManPack]

Ok...

DetoXJ,

Okay...well now I feel a little bit better about your stance. I think there was some misunderstanding on both of our parts. Anyway....we work for different airlines it seems....I work for ExpressJet. Nevertheless, I want to make sure you understand that I'm not blaming Captains or any one group for that matter amoung pilots. I think there are several problem areas within the whole pilot group industry wide and was using that as an example of one that I thought was one of the more obvious problems.

Anyway, unfortunately I am still not in the position at this point (first year FO) to be more active in ALPA and I understand your concerns. It does seem that many more people are willing to talk about problems rather than do something about them using all appropriate and effective means.

Really the reason I wanted to reply to this thread to begin with is because it looks like this guy that started it is genuinely interested in making a difference in our profession and I applaud him for it. I also was trying to be realistic and not sugarcoat things either and perhaps that came across to you as attacking one group or another when it was not my intention.

Bottom line is that we as pilots definitely need to take a stand or else nobody will! I applaud you guys over there at Mesaba for recognizing some of the more grossly inadequate areas of your compensation package and doing something about it. We at XJT have a lot of infighting about some of the same areas you spoke about which don't seem to be turning out for the best of those receiving the short end of the stick. Again, not the only problem but definitely a BIG problem.

Alright...running out of time here.....good discussion after all!