"what if" fighter jet questions

[Hootie9750]

I don't have a desire to fly a fighter jet but I am still curious, "if the f15 and the f16 went up against each other one on one, which is superior? also is the f16 basically a ground assault aircraft? Ive heard that the f16 just isnt used for air to air, and that in upt you learn basically how to bomb the ground. I have friends who think its all like top gun dogfighting and I try to tell them its really not. But then again I only know the civilian world.

 

[Draginass]

First of all, you have to realize what the military objective is. Let's take Iraq, for example. The polictical objective is to change the regime. In order to do that you must defeat the Iraqi army's will and/or ability to resist and protect the regime leaders. In order to do that with minimum casualties to our own forces we must first control the airspace above the battlefield . . . called air superiority (ability to control portions/times of airspace) or air supremacy (complete command of airspace). The idea being to be able to weaken or destroy the enemy army by attack from the air. Being an army commander without control of the air above you is fatal, as was proved during Gulf War I.

So, in short, you first conduct a campaign to gain air supremacy with you air-to-air fighters, and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) assets, in order to be able to operate you bombers without interference. Therefor, the "fighter" assests like air-to-air F-15s become a sort of "support" for the bombers . . . B-52s, B-1s, B-2s, F-15Es, F-16s, FA-18s, etc. The bombers then beat up the enemy ground forces bad enough to make it less risky for the Army's Mech Infantry and Armor to engage what left of the enemy forces.

And THAT, is really the main show . . . the maneuver forces on the ground.

In short, the F-16 is a good dual purpose air-to-air fighter and bomber. The F-15s as a dedicated air superiority fighter, are more heavily armed, have better radar, etc. As a fighter, the F-16 is smaller and harder to see and argueably more maneuverable. Which one is superior? Well, that probably has a lot to do with the training, experience, and skill of the pilot and support (AWACs) etc. From my own perspective as a former heavy bomber pilot, I'd prefer a "wall" of eagles (F-15s) to clear out the airspace and "own" the air, with F-16s and F-15Es configured for ground attack to go after the better defended ground targets, then the heavy bombers to do the heavy lifting of attacking massed troop/armor concentrations, multiple targets, and provide a long loiter times with very large bomb loads (a single B-1 has a bomb load equal to about a squadron of F-16s).

It really is an irrelevant question, however. We're not fighting each other, nor are we adversaries of countries who we've sold F-16s.

 

[Eagleflip]

Draginass stated the subtleties of air power well.

In short, however, the F-15C would win everytime, regardless of skill, cunning and experience.

In reality, the F-16 is a bit more agile in the close-in maneuvering fight. While the F-15 has a greater instantaneous g-loading onset rate, in practice that point is lost as the F-15 pilot must use a bit of skill to pull the stick to exaaaaactly the right point to pull 8.5 Gz. He is unlikely to pull to that point as fast as he can, since the aircraft will over-G if taken even .1% over the maximum. The F-16 pilot can simply pull on the stick as hard as he likes, and the jet will give him as many Gz as it figures it can give.

That advantage, combined with the F-16's greater thrust (the Eagle's going to be re-engined soon, though!) per lb. of weight, gives the Viper a bit of an edge in a maneuvering fight.

That said, skill and experience will most assuredly play a role in the outcome of that fight.

The truly interesting point is that turning fights are not all that common these days. The Eagle's advantage truly lies in its ability to find, identify, communicate (via data link), target and kill the bad guys before entering the visual domain.

The Eagle (both C and E) are awesome machines in every sense of the word. I'm extremely lucky to have been a part of that fraternity.

 

[Hootie9750]

wow, those are both pretty dam good responses
basically there is no "CLEAR and OBVIOUS" winner in the irrelevant f15 vs f16 question.
I know the F15C is a single seat, but why is that such a dominate air to air machine versus the two seat F15E (isnt there a D and an A also?). I would think two sets of eyes and hands are better than one?

 

[Dick]

The reasons why C-models are "superior" in air-to-air are beyond the scope of this board. Mostly it is avionics, leave it at that. HOWEVER, the E-model is a kick ass BVR air-to-air platform, far "superior" to the Viper.

Now, on to "supporting" bombers, wow, don't ever mention that in a Strike Eagle squadron.

 

[Draginass]

Don't get caught up in an immature discussion of "mine's bigger than yours." It's irrelevant, and usually the immature loudmouth blaggart is an idiot . . . and wrong.

Anybody who's worked in a CAOC knows that it's unique capabilities and roles that's important, not whether it's an F or a B preceeding the number. Using an F-15E as a purely air superiority asset is a waste of capability when it's bombing capability is needed elsewhere. That's why we have F-15C dedicated to that role. The limited number of (very expensive) F-15Es we have are better suited to bombing in a high threat situation where self-defense is a major consideration.

As for my role as a bomber flight lead, I considered it my job to get my bombardiers got to "work." That maybe heresy in the pilot community, but nevertheless essentially true.

Still wondering how the F-117, F-111, and FB-111 got designated "F's."

My favorite quote from Gen Curt Lemay. "Fighters are fun, but bombers make policy." Not entirely true, but it irritated the tactical air command generals at the time, which was enough.

I have friends who think its all like top gun dogfighting and I try to tell them its really not. But then again I only know the civilian world.

The idea is to NOT get into a "dogfight." Why get into a knifefight when you can shoot your adversary with a sniper rifle (beyond visual range (BVR) AMRAAM shot or kill him before he leaves his house. We do that by air inderdiction . . . destroying his airfield, fuel supplies and pipelines, etc thereby causing virtual attrition, BEFORE he has a chance to even launch. In the coming Gulf War II, it will be virtually suicidal for an Iraqi to launch an aircraft.

 

[ExAF]

"It Depends"

The most common answer to come out of the FWS....IT DEPENDS! One of the best sayings I ever heard flying fighters was "Hamburger in any wrapper is still hamburger." Another good saying is..."A grape is a grape!" Cheers!

 

[H82BL8T]

After spending 14 years in the F-15 (all air-to-air) & 4 years in the F-16 as an Aggressor pilot (all air-to-air), I must concur with my distinguished colleagues above - the winner of this 1v1 air-to-air fight will be told by the pilot who has his best game on. Both vehicles are truly remarkable air-to-air fighting machine, each having unique areas of advantage over the other – but nothing that can’t be overcome by knowledge, aggressiveness and currency. I've "won" and "lost" many of fights in each fighter – though more wins then losses as I choose to remember it today. An USAF F-15 / F-16 pilot’s true aerial combat talents are born, bread, and sustained by the best training, education, and proficiency in the world.
The reality of today’s aerial combat involves a tremendous amount of flight member teamwork and integration of support assets. The future of a truly 1v1 dogfight seems unlikely. Nobody seems to want to come up and fight when real bullets and missiles are loaded.
I sure miss those days of strapping in, firing up, and getting down with some serious Gs.

“7k – 6k – Fights ON!!”

For the F-16 community, that’s “1.2 – 1.1 – Fights ON!!”

 

[furloboy]

Ohhhh!!!! It's so tempting...I want to turn hard, slow down, pull to 35 alpha and poke my nose into this fight!!!!

I have to keep reminding myself: It's not my fight, I wasnt' invited....

 

[BeanFighter]

Since when do we need an invite?... Furloboy, ours goes to 11.

 

[F18-FDX]

Furloboy, my thoughts exactly! Well put by Draginass/Eagleflip et al.


"Fighter pilots make movies, attack pilots make history"...it's nice to be in an airplane that does both!

 

[Hootie9750]

my 172 can beat up your archer

furloboy, beanfighter, f18fdx, you guys sound like you have something to say, go for it. I don't know much about f18 or navy aircraft for that matter, so whats the f18's story? is the F18 superior to af aircraft? I guess it depends on who you talk to, but still would like to hear your guys opinions on the topic.

 

[F18-FDX]

Honestly, I was just poking fun. However if you're wondering, the F/A-18 is probably most similar in capabilities to the F-16 (except of course it can land on a 500 foot runway that moves up, down & sideways he he). None of the above-mentioned aircraft are "superior" to any other. As was most aptly pointed out earlier, they each have their strong points. The marriage of these unique capabilities make the U.S. Air and Naval Air Forces the most powerful, respected and feared on the planet.

 

[AlbieF15]

Another commonality between the F-18, the F-16, and the F-15 (and you can throw in about any other fighter or trainer here) is that ANY of them are more fun than sitting on the *&%$ panel. I thank God every day for the ANG.

 

[F18-FDX]

Amen, Brother!

 

[BeanFighter]

and any panel job is better than a furloughed job....count your blessings.

 

[AlbieF15]

Blessings counted...and I am VERY lucky to be where I am. My point wasn't that FDX is a bad job (its great...), but rather that flying ANY fighter or pointy jet is tremendously satisfying and challenging, and yes....fun.

Managing the panel is for a great company is a great JOB. I'm greatful. The airline lifestyle is awesome, but for those adrenalin junkies out there it certainly doesn't compare to your military flying. I'm glad I still get to do both, and for those of you out there still leaving active duty to chase other dreams, I encourage you to find a part-time ANG or Reserve slot if at all possible. Each job will make you appreciate the other job for all its pros and cons.

 

[ExAF]

You don't just PLAY war!

Albie's doing what I hope to be doing some day. Flying for a major (panel or not) making a some good money, then get to play war every now and then in something that can see 4 digit airspeeds, AND get paid for that too! Mmmmmmmmmmm.... talk about the good life.

In the mean time............. "Dou-ble time!.... march!"

One thing you had better ingrain in your brain is that WAR is a serious business and it is not something you PLAY every now and then. If you are in the Guard or Reserves, you WILL be called on to participate and it won't be PLAY. I wish I had a dollar for every guardsman or reservist that punched after Desert Storm saying, "this is more than what I signed up for." This is not a slam on ANG or AFRES; they served and served well. The fact is they are getting the call far more frequently and for longer durations than any time in history. It is to the point that it really stretches the idea of it being a "part-time" commitment. I have a lot of friends that left the AF for ANG and AFRES jobs while flying for an airline only to find out they were gone from home more than if they had stayed in active duty. Then they were activated for Desert Storm and endured hardships they thought would never happen. Many quit because their quality of life got worse, not better. You had better make sure you really know what you are getting into before you sign on the dotted line and start "living the good life." You sound like you think it is all a big game.

 

[Hootie9750]

" I think I read somewhere that the majority of units that have enforced southern watch over Iraq have been Reserve and Gaurd Units, and they've been getting shot at for years. "

really? so you guys that fly fighters for the reserve and guard, where have you been deployed to in the world and for how long? and when you get shot at is it generally from the ground or air? and do you get to shoot back?

 

[Hootie9750]

any ang reserve guys want to answer my question about how long of deployment, where to and if youve been shot at?