Westwind I info

[caseyd]

We're thinkin about buying a Westwind I. It's got some quite a bit of time on the airframe and needs avionics redone. Anybody want to share operational experiences, maint experience, recommendations about avionics/radar upgrade etc. We believe them to be reliable and versatile.
Thanks,
caseyd

 

[Gearmunky]

Two of my best friends fly "Yom Kippur Clippers" Part 91 and have no problems with them. One was just upgraded with Garmin 530's, TAWS and the works. Really a nice airplane. They've got pretty good range and speed, and are reliable, plus they are usually pretty cheap. Ugly as all h*ll on the ground and don't ever expect to get a "quick" quick turn they take forever to fuel. Otherwise it's a cheap good airplane to haul 8 or so people around if you willing to put a little TLC into it.

 

[caseyd]

Thanks GM. Those 530's are sweet I'm told.

 

[hawkerjet]

it is an over all solid aircraft. non stop la-ny and baggage space galore. maintenance is generally straight forward. i think the plane will serve you well, however i would caution the installation of the 530's. i understand they will not help with the resale. do some more homework regarding the garmins in a westwind.

 

[User546]

Thanks GM. Those 530's are sweet I'm told.

We got dual 530's in our aircraft and they're great.

We can get current Nexrad images (nearly worthless), Textual Metars, TCAS, and Winds Aloft information on ours. May not be all "required" stuff to have, but it sure makes the time go by a lot quicker sometimes!

 

[User546]

i understand they will not help with the resale. do some more homework regarding the garmins in a westwind.

I'm curious why you said that?

 

[SabreFlyR]

I'd have to go along with everything Hawkerjet said about the Westwind. If you do get the Garmins make sure that you get the "A" models with the 16 watt tansmitters. I oprerated a Sabre 65 for a year with the Garmin 530A & 430A all over the US, Canada and Alaska with no radio problems at all. As for the comment about slow to refuel, do not know where his info came from, but the WW has single point refueling as is as quick at refueling as any other jet I have operated.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

A lot of airplane for the money.

A good mx guy is a priority on this aircraft. It will serve you fine however you cant ignore lingering mx issues like it was a Learjet. How many freight outfits fly westwinds??

Gremlin like electrical problems - hey, its old.

Fuel indication and migration problems - had them on 4 out of 5 Westwinds I flew. Garrett Augusta was the only place that could semi-fix this one. I had pretty good westwind service from Duncan Battle Creek also - (oh a fine town)

Most I flew had the dual UNS-1 set up - seemed to work just fine.

Pay full attention to the 3 (?) airframes completly toasted by the oxygen fed ground fire. Pay even more attention to IAI's "fix" to this occurance. Form your own opinion.

Seemed to fuel fast to me..? single point. You want slow fueling go buy a Global Express.

Perf fully loaded is not pretty, but it goes a long way...its easy to fly and land. Only thing on perf that sticks out is ugly runway manners landing wet/snow with strong x-winds. Poor nosewheel steering....or maybe Im just a $hitty pilot....

All in all a lot of airplane for the bucks, and will serve you well if taken care of well - and many were not.

All that being said, I pray each day i never have to fly one again - they are ugly, noisy, and very uncomfortable!!

Good Luck!

 

[G100driver]

My 1st PIC gig. I have a lot lotta love for the old pig. It never failed me ... except for the time the tubing blew off the ECU and we had a rapid decompression at 6000fpm.

If flew like a truck but it was cheap to operate and was very reliable. You can also find a lot of shops who know how to work on them. We had very few maint problems on ours and it is still flying today, full RVSM and TWAS, with very few problems.

My advise about the westwind is that after you land and put the airplane to bed, just do not turn around and look at it sitting on the ramp. It is kinda like chubby chasing ... it was fun while you were doing it, but when you are done, just leave while the lights are still out.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

thats pretty funny....the westwind....like bangin' a fat chik!

 

[caseyd]

200 - Thanks for the input. I'll take special note of the fuel and O2 issues. Regarding it's appearance, I fly like I ----, with my eyes closed. So no big deal there.
cased

 

[hawkerjet]

one more thing regarding the westwind, when you do a pre buy, make sure, i mean absolutely sure, you do it at trimec aviation at meacham field. no one knows their way around a westwind like the guys at trimec.

 

[caseyd]

one more thing regarding the westwind, when you do a pre buy, make sure, i mean absolutely sure, you do it at trimec aviation at meacham field. no one knows their way around a westwind like the guys at trimec.

Thanks hawkerjet. We'll look at them for sure. I heard folks at KILM are good too? Thoughts anyone?

 

[Gearmunky]

Well if your looking for a good place to get it inspected for pre-buy, or maintenance depending on your location, Elcorta Inc. at Wilmington, DE (KILG) is the place to go. They are specialize in Westwinds. They are very nice people and do a good job. I've seen more Westwinds come in and out of their place than any other airplane.

If you need avionics work Red Eagle Avionics also at ILG does pretty good work, they put the Garmin package in my friends a/c and it turned out great.

 

[caseyd]

I'd have to go along with everything Hawkerjet said about the Westwind. If you do get the Garmins make sure that you get the "A" models with the 16 watt tansmitters. I oprerated a Sabre 65 for a year with the Garmin 530A & 430A all over the US, Canada and Alaska with no radio problems at all. As for the comment about slow to refuel, do not know where his info came from, but the WW has single point refueling as is as quick at refueling as any other jet I have operated.

How long was the ship down for the Garmin conversion? Who did it? Was it ready to go upon completion or did you have squacks?

Thanks,
caseyd

 

[cptsesso]

caseyd

I am not sure what hawkerjet's quote means:

"however i would caution the installation of the 530's. i understand they will not help with the resale."

I have to disagree and say that no matter what the Westwind has in it, the resale value is not going to change by much. It is already the cheapest, best buy on the market for what it can do. I must add that a Westwind with the NCS-31 still installed in it is actually a hindrance. While in it's day the NCS-31 was top of the line, today most have issues and if it breaks, avionics shops won't even touch it.

I am the one who Gearmunky is refering to who had the Garmin package done. I would highly recommend it to you or anyone else who has or is thinking about getting a Westwind. It solves a lot of issues with the standard Westwind avionics, most notably the old NCS-31 system always acting up and makes things a heck of a lot nicer for the crew. Ex: moving maps, TIS traffic display, TAWS, weather (if you get the additional box), approaches automatically load set up freqs and slew the HSI needles, departures, arrivals, all of the airport info and freqs, nearest airports, fixes etc, fuel flows (with an add on). The only thing I wish Garmin would do is have airways installed. You still need to manually enter fixes along the route but that isn't too bad since most times we are only on an airway for a short time and then direct to a further fix.

Now if you do get one with the NCS-31 in it and an older GPS or FMS ( we had an old Universal UNS-1m), it is a no brainer.

To remove the NCS-31 and replace it with individual Collins control heads will run around $60k or so (as I was quoted).

Last fall, we had a Garmin 530A TAWS(16watt), 430(10watt), and dual GTX330 transponders installed. Total price was less than $70k but I believe it is a few thousand more now since we were the first one Red Eagle completed. Total downtime was 5 weeks, 20 working days were quoted (4 weeks) but they ran into some delays because we had some missing wiring diagrams.

For a few thousand more than just control heads, you have a much more usefull system, better radios and meet the TAWS B requirement. How could you go wrong.

As far as having both Garmins as 16 watt "A" models installed, our 10 watt 430 works very well. Never an issue with reception. In fact we are able to get ATIS from 150 to 200 miles out and most AWOS from 50 to 100 miles. Our old radios, about 100 miles was the limit for ATIS and most times 20 to 40 miles for AWOS. Transmitting has always been reported as 5 by 5. I know of a Falcon 10 with both Garmins as 10 watt and never has any issues, but just to be safe, we got the 530A.

Performance wise, the range on the Westwind is excellent for its size and price. If you fly at LRC, west to east coast non-stop is "usually" not a problem. I do it often at normal cruise and like to see at least a 50 kt avg tailwind, but that is just me. We do KVNY to KESN in about 4.5 to 4.7 hrs and land with 1700 to 2000 lbs with 50 kts on tail. If weather is iffy, I will make a fuel stop along the way.

Takeoff performance is all together another story. It is a "ground hugger". Loves to eat up pavement. High and hot performance is dismal. Can't carry anything or go very far, if you can even go at all.

One issue to remember is "all Westwinds leak fuel". It is a given, unless the tanks were just resealed. Then you may get a couple years or several hundred hours out of it then they will leak again.

Nosewheel steering is not the greatest system, but you get used to it. I never had any issues with slow refueling and have seen a few old, high time Westwinds with weird electrical gremlins, but most are very solid.

G100drivers quote "except for the time the tubing blew off the ECU" is mostly a mechanic issue. During inspections when they change the condenser sock, sometimes mechanics do not tighten the clamps up all the way. A clamp comes loose, a hose pops off and there goes the cabin pressure. It has happened to me and also and a few other Westwind guys I know. The best thing to do is stress this to your mechanic during inspections and be sure to take it up to altitude after an inspection.

Looks wise, you get used to it. It is not as bad as people say. You just have to become familiar with the various names for it, like "Jew Canoe", "Bagel bomber" or "Yom Kippur Clipper". No offense meant to anyone.

If I can give you any more info PM me and I will help.

 

[G100driver]

I guess I should have clarified that. It was DEFINATLY a mechanic issue. Not the airplanes problem.

 

[Chocks]

Don't forget "Rabbi Rambler!"

It might make sense to get some active noise reduction headsets too - the cockpit is freaking LOUD!!

 

[Dizel8]

Huh???