VLJ taxi service...Hot or Not?

[Flying Illini]

I wasn't sure where to put this one, so "General" it is.

AIN online had a blurb about www.dayjet.com in it. I was looking over their site and had pretty mixed feelings about the whole thing. On one hand it could be a huge success, but what seems more likely to me, is that the money is going to run out pretty quickly.

Thoughts? Will companies like this make it or not?

...and no, I'm not looking to go work there. Just trying to start a discussion on this type of business.

 

[gern_blanston]

I don't see how it can work. These 'per-seat'/'per-leg' charter prognosticators don't understand that there won't be 3 pax waiting at the destination of the last 3 pax. They assume that there will be, at the same time on the same day as their arrival with the last batch of customers. They'll always have to non-rev to the next pickup point.
Also, where's the market? Look at it this way: A Baron can take 3 pax 150 nm in an hour. Let's say a VLJ can do it in 40 minutes for (optimistically) 50% more money. Why haven't all the piston or turboprop charter operators made this work before. If there were really a demand for this type of service, why couldn't someone be successful at it in the 50 years that charter's been available? The demand for this type of service isn't going to just suddenly materialize after decades of charter being available. Sure, people like the idea of jets, but for 1/3 less money, they could do it right now in a piston twin or a Turbo Commander.
I watched SkyTaxi management struggle with this concept for 2 years out in Oregon, and they never had a sustained load factor of over 1.1. That's 1.1 pax per flight!!
They could sometimes get 3 or 4 pax on a flight, but it was typically a short one like Newport to PDX, at which point they'd have to fly empty to Boise to pick up one guy and take him to Seattle. Then what? Deadhead to Crescent City, of course, to pick up 2 pax and take 'em to Oakland. Then it's empty to Klamath falls to pick up one and take 'm to LaGrande. Filling seats will be the tricky part, and to make up for the empty legs, the cost per seat will much more expensive than they're hoping.

 

[EagleRJ]

I can't see this idea working in on-demand charter. The only place I see it is for short routes that don't have airline service, like SNA to Catalina Island or DEN to Aspen. An established route with wealthy passengers is the only way I see it making money.

I'm not looking forward to sharing airspace with these microjets. From what I've heard, their cruise speed is very slow for a jet. Sort of like launching a fleet of Do-328Js. (Not knocking those who fly the Do-jet, but it does get in the way at .64).

 

[gern_blanston]

Yeah, but you'd still be doing something that anyone could have done for the last several decades. If they were profitable routes, someone would be doing them.
I'm a bit nervous about the VLJ's buzzing about like flies, too, and for one reason: Owner Pilots. Owner-flown airplanes can be safe, and there are lots of them operating invisibly in the system now, but everybody with a hankering to fly and a million bucks is gonna' want one or these little jets. All the 'easy to fly' talk will attract some undesireables, I'm afraid.
On another note, I was in New Mexico on a trip last month, and parked a hundred yards away from the Eclipse factory, so my crew and I wandered over and got the nickel tour. Very impressive operation with a very impressive machine. If they can really push 'em out the door for a million-and-a-quarter, they'll swamp the airways with the little buggers.

 

[CorpLearDriver]

I'm a bit nervous about the VLJ's buzzing about like flies, too, and for one reason: Owner Pilots. Owner-flown airplanes can be safe, and there are lots of them operating invisibly in the system now, but everybody with a hankering to fly and a million bucks is gonna' want one or these little jets. All the 'easy to fly' talk will attract some undesireables, I'm afraid.
On another note, I was in New Mexico on a trip last month, and parked a hundred yards away from the Eclipse factory, so my crew and I wandered over and got the nickel tour. Very impressive operation with a very impressive machine. If they can really push 'em out the door for a million-and-a-quarter, they'll swamp the airways with the little buggers.

I saw it at Sun and Fun. It is a nice looking little airplane. I was doing some research after seeing it and still haven't found out much about their mentor program. After they train and type the new owners, they (and the insurance companies) don't want them out there without a leash for a while. We might end up with a bunch of Munson Burner imitations.

 

[mattpilot]

I think it will work (the concept).

The problem with today's charter planes is that they are pistons. Most of the people not in the (aviation) field think pistons are dangerous. They don't trust them. Be it bigger airline versions, or small twins. I often, probably just like you all, get asked what happens when an engine quits - if we will just fall out of the sky. To you and I, this is a redicules question - but to most people unaffiliated with aviation, its something they worry about. So the concept will definitely get a boost just because they fly jets.

The other thing thats even more important is advertisement. They will probably do a lot of it. And everyone likes the idea of traveling like the "rich people" - in corporate jets.



A possible market, besides what was already mentioned, will probably be flying pax that got overbooked by the airlines. An agreement with the airlines, like SWA, will probably generate lots of income. All a operater has to do is wait until the airline calls and tells them they have some pax that need flying. It will most likely be cheaper to fly them on an eclipse than to compensate them a $100 and put them on the next flight. The pax that got overbooked will be delighted to fly on a "corporate jet" instead of on an "unsafe" piston aircraft.

just my thoughts - i guess time will tell if it will work or not.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I saw it at Sun and Fun. It is a nice looking little airplane. I was doing some research after seeing it and still haven't found out much about their mentor program. After they train and type the new owners, they (and the insurance companies) don't want them out there without a leash for a while. We might end up with a bunch of Munson Burner imitations.

Who wants that babysitting job? I just turned one down for over double the money I make now. Not worth it for the hassle.

Mr. I.

 

[smellthejeta]

It will most likely be cheaper to fly them on an eclipse than to compensate them a $100 and put them on the next flight.

You're kidding me, right? Vary rarely do the airlines pay out cold hard cash for denied boarding compensation, and when they do, the amount is probably very low. At least it would be on the tickets that I fly on. The more common "free ticket" or "$XXX credit voucher" costs the airlines the opportunity cost of filling that seat with a regular fare paying passenger. If a seat the pax flies on goes empty, it cost the airline mere pennies to compensate that passenger.

So tell me, how exactly do think chartering an eclipse is cheaper?

 

[EagleRJ]

I think a good way to start a riot in the boarding area would be to bump passengers onto a VLJ. You can call it a "corporate jet", but once the passenger sees the Cherokee-sized cabin and realizes that all their baggage can't go, they'll be more angry than if they had been sent on a motorcoach.

There's an implied element of safety in size with passengers today. They're nervous enough on Saabs, Brasilias, and 1900s- I can't imagine they would be happy on a VLJ, turbine power or not.
The whole issue of a 135 carrier picking up and dropping off on a secure ramp would be tough to overcome, too. Such a setup would also require a two-pilot crew, cutting the passenger capacity to 2-4. The airlines could never afford to do that.

 

[mattpilot]

it was only an opinion - don't lose any sleep over it guys

You're kidding me, right? Vary rarely do the airlines pay out cold hard cash for denied boarding compensation, and when they do, the amount is probably very low. At least it would be on the tickets that I fly on. The more common "free ticket" or "$XXX credit voucher" costs the airlines the opportunity cost of filling that seat with a regular fare paying passenger. If a seat the pax flies on goes empty, it cost the airline mere pennies to compensate that passenger.

So tell me, how exactly do think chartering an eclipse is cheaper?

I don't know about you, but when my family flew with delta, we got $250 per person + hotel room for a night on international flights. On domestic flights we got only $100. My family flies quite a lot (my dad has over a million miles with delta), so it happens once in a while. Granted, the last time it happened to me was a few years ago (i rarely fly in the cabin). I have no doubt about it that these days its more rare to receive compensation, especially given the economy. Occasionally though, watching shows like airport or airline, you still see airlines giving out money, or other benefits.

How is the eclipse cheaper? Well, i think the operating costs of the eclipse run somewhere between $150 and $200 an hour, if i'm not mistaken. On short trips, with 3 people + bags, it could very well be cheaper. I'm not saying it will be cheaper in all cases with every airline - it all depends on what the alternatives are & how much the airline would spend otherwise in compensation.

 

[Flying Illini]

I think this particular VLJ operator (dayjet) is going to use a 2 person crew at all times.

My thoughts were similar on the load factor. You will do a lot of empty repositioning flights which will get pretty expensive.

I'm curious to see how these VLJ's will mix with current traffic. They are very slow and there are going to be A LOT of them flying around in the coming years. ATCers will probably hate them more than the pilots will (just remember, always vector the slower traffic!)

Unfortunately, I think the accident rate for these VLJ's is going to be sky high...for the first couple of years until they figure out a training program that works. The low cost of joining the VLJ club (1 million +) is going to attract owners of high performance singles and twins that cost half of that (500,000 + or -). None of those people have much if any experience in the flight levels nor do that have experience with the speeds that these jets will provide. In the same breath though, some of these owners will fly their aircraft in a very professional and safe manner and will have no problems...I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Sort of like launching a fleet of Do-328Js. (Not knocking those who fly the Do-jet, but it does get in the way at .64).

hey, Hey, HEY! Don't be dissing my DoJet! The DoJet has CHARACTER! It's not a flying pencil (ERJ) or look like it's going to dive into the ground on landing (CRJ).

Besides, we can cruise at .66! LOL

We now return you to your regular programming...

HMM

 

[smellthejeta]

it was only an opinion - don't lose any sleep over it guys




I don't know about you, but when my family flew with delta, we got $250 per person + hotel room for a night on international flights. On domestic flights we got only $100. My family flies quite a lot (my dad has over a million miles with delta), so it happens once in a while. Granted, the last time it happened to me was a few years ago (i rarely fly in the cabin). I have no doubt about it that these days its more rare to receive compensation, especially given the economy. Occasionally though, watching shows like airport or airline, you still see airlines giving out money, or other benefits.

How is the eclipse cheaper? Well, i think the operating costs of the eclipse run somewhere between $150 and $200 an hour, if i'm not mistaken. On short trips, with 3 people + bags, it could very well be cheaper. I'm not saying it will be cheaper in all cases with every airline - it all depends on what the alternatives are & how much the airline would spend otherwise in compensation.

Are you talking cold hard cash, or transportation/travel credit vouchers? They're two different things. I have NEVER received cold hard cash for getting bumped, and I try to get bumped as often as possible. TCV's are fake money, like monopoly money. They have no value outside the company/game. I'm still telling you it costs an airline very little to bump somebody.

Last year, I received $500 in CO money for a bump that only cost me a two hour wait. That was about twice what I paid for my ticket, and anything any airline does with me that costs them cold hard cash means they lost money. When it comes to TCV's, it costs them very little.

 

[mattpilot]

A few years ago it was hard cash. Recently (last 1-2 years), my dad has only gotten travel vouchers.

I'm still telling you it costs an airline very little to bump somebody.

Could very well be.

 

[AA717driver]

CASM is king. If they don't generate enough to cover two pilots and the operating costs, leases... Whatever, they won't make a go of it.

The idea is for one of us to be able to fly these people around to small airports all day long and everyone is happy. Except me who is getting paid less than a NJA newhire and doing the 135 thing all day.

The insurance companies will want high-timers (probably two per plane) who are factory trained and 135 current. The employers will want recent ERAU grads who are desperate for jet PIC time. The reality is they will have massive turnover like many of the piston 135 operators do now. Operating costs will go through the roof due to the training costs.

Just my guess.TC