Visual Approach

[minitour]

Yesterday getting vectors and told to expect the ILS. Got the field in sight and told approach and asked for the visual...they said okay no problem. So we're told to Descend and Maintain 3000" so we do that ... a few minutes later we're cleared for the visual...

My question:

You can descend for the visual approach once cleared, correct?

I never really asked that question in ground school or form my instructor, but I just stayed at 3000 and when cleared I descended to TPA (since I was on an extended base) then set it up to land...

Was I okay??

ATCers what do you "expect"?

-mini

 

[User546]

I'm not an ATCer, but we frequently do a lot of Visual Approaches, so I might be able to offer a little help.

I like to think of being "Cleared for the visual" the same as "Descend at the pilots discretion." Now there are several situations you might find yourself in when you get this clearance, but the execution of it should be the same.

When cleared for the visual, the descent planning and altitude management is up to you. If you are familiar with the area, and know of all obstacles (radio towers, hills, etc.) then you could descent down to TPA if you wish, but be extra vigillant.

If your not familiar with the area, I always like to keep my altitude a bit high until some type of visual cue can be esatablished for the runway cleared for (VASI, PAPI, etc.) which should keep me away from any known/unforeseen objects lurking out there around the airport. Then once I've established that, I begin down in a normal fashion.

I guess to put it one sentence: Descent is at your discretion, but have your eyes outside the cockpit, and be safe.

 

[User546]

(Nothing to see here... Move on down a few more inches...)

 

[minitour]

...
I like to think of being "Cleared for the visual" the same as "Descend at the pilots discretion." Now there are several situations you might find yourself in when you get this clearance, but the execution of it should be the same.

When cleared for the visual, the descent planning and altitude management is up to you. If you are familiar with the area, and know of all obstacles (radio towers, hills, etc.) then you could descent down to TPA if you wish, but be extra vigillant.

If your not familiar with the area, I always like to keep my altitude a bit high until some type of visual cue can be esatablished for the runway cleared for (VASI, PAPI, etc.) which should keep me away from any known/unforeseen objects lurking out there around the airport. Then once I've established that, I begin down in a normal fashion.

I guess to put it one sentence: Descent is at your discretion, but have your eyes outside the cockpit, and be safe.

Thanks...that's what I thought.

I wasn't cleared for the approach until I was on that "extended base" probably about 5 miles out but definitely clear of obstacles/obstructions.

Anywho...Thanks for clearing that up.

-mini

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Mini--you did the right thing. Stay at your last assigned altitude until ATC clears you for the visual, OR until you call ATC and advise you have the field and would like to cancel IFR and he adises you to sqwak VFR. This is a common practice, but when you cancel IFR you lose the assurance of aircraft seperation from ATC. If I have the field in sight and intend on cancelling in the air, I ask ATC if there is any traffic between me and the airport. He may tell you he observes traffic in the pattern or not. If you are cleared for the visual, they are basically telling you there is no traffic that will be a factor to you. Last thing, don't cancel in the air if you may have to go missed and pop back in IFR. if it's a controlled field, you probably already know that you IFR is automatically cancelled upon landing.

 

[minitour]

Mini--you did the right thing. Stay at your last assigned altitude until ATC clears you for the visual, OR until you call ATC and advise you have the field and would like to cancel IFR and he adises you to sqwak VFR. This is a common practice, but when you cancel IFR you lose the assurance of aircraft seperation from ATC. If I have the field in sight and intend on cancelling in the air, I ask ATC if there is any traffic between me and the airport. He may tell you he observes traffic in the pattern or not. If you are cleared for the visual, they are basically telling you there is no traffic that will be a factor to you. Last thing, don't cancel in the air if you may have to go missed and pop back in IFR. if it's a controlled field, you probably already know that you IFR is automatically cancelled upon landing.

Thanks for the reply

I don't really care for cancelling in the air unless its "clear and a million". Even then I've heard too many horror stories about people cancelling, ending up 1/4 mile short of the runway and no one finding out for three days.

Plus, like you said, if you need to "go around/missed" and pop back in the stuff...and IFR separation...it's just as easy to turn on the cell phone or (if they have it available) call them on the radio on the ground and say "okay I'm here".

This situation was a controlled field so it was no big deal, but I just wasn't 100% sure. I figured I was okay since you need to be in position to make a "normal landing" or however they word it...so I assumed they didn't want me at 3000' until final...

Anywho...first non-dual actual was fun...and a lot easier than I thought...I figured, "man I'm gonna have to work real real hard on the scan" but it was almost automatic...fun stuff...love this IFR sh*t!

-mini

-mini

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Just be careful out there. Get all the experience you can and never be afraid to ask questions.

 

[minitour]

Just be careful out there. Get all the experience you can and never be afraid to ask questions.

Careful is me...my wife made me a deal...I'm "over cautious" with go/no go decisions and I can fly...

and me afraid to ask questions? hahaha

I can come up with some stupid ones sometimes...being afraid to ask is not a problem...

afterall it's a "license to learn" right?

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

Mini,

As the other posters said, descent on a Visual Approach is at your discretion. Also, you're obviously doing your own navigation visually. Therefore, there are times as a Controller I want to keep you on a vector, and either at an altitude, or a standard rate of descent, until other traffic conflicts are resolved. I've used phraseology similar to:

"Descend now to three thousand feet. Reaching three thousand, cleared visual approach."

Or:

"Maintain at or above four thousand until established on final, cleared visual aproach."

Or:

"Proceed visually to the airport, but maintain four thousand. Expect approach clearance in five miles."

So it can work different ways. All of the above examples are ways for me to insure separation from other traffic you don't see.

 

[Daveman]

(Nothing to see here... Move on down a few more inches...)

There's something funny here to say, just can't think of it.....at the moment.

 

[Swerpipe]

And a few other things

1)Some charted visual procedures will spell out how to navigate and minumum altitudes. Those are at pilot discretion but can not descend below minimums and need to navigate according to the chart. e.g. Tip Toe Visual at KSFO

2) Weather needs to be 1000-3 at the airport and have the airport or preceding aircraft in sight to get it

3) On Part 135 you can not be more than 35nm from the airport even if you have it in sight. The controller might still clear you but you have to decline until <35nm

4)On part 135, we can not do visual approaches to un controlled field or fields after the tower is closed. You either land out of the instrument approach and cancel or cancel in the air within 10 nm.

5) Warning. Beware at night. I like to look at the the ILS approach and fly the minumum altitudes on the profile at night. At unfamiliar fields we ALWAYS fly the approach even if the controller issued "a Visual" and if not properly aligned we circle to land. If you fly to enough unfamiliar fields at nights with volcanos around you'll see why. Plenty of examples in the Southwest and Mexico. Probably the best habit I could recommend you.

 

[minitour]

...
5) Warning. Beware at night. I like to look at the the ILS approach and fly the minumum altitudes on the profile at night. At unfamiliar fields we ALWAYS fly the approach even if the controller issued "a Visual" and if not properly aligned we circle to land. If you fly to enough unfamiliar fields at nights with volcanos around you'll see why. Plenty of examples in the Southwest and Mexico. Probably the best habit I could recommend you.

Good points..

This one kinda gets back to my question (thread) on "Following the GS"

I would assume that if you aren't familiar with the field or at night setting up and following the ILS until you can circle or land would be preferable..

Thanks again every1

-mini

 

[Singlecoil]

4)On part 135, we can not do visual approaches to un controlled field or fields after the tower is closed. You either land out of the instrument approach and cancel or cancel in the air within 10 nm.

I see where you're going with this, but I think you are slightly off the mark. I believe it is you can't cancel IFR after the tower is closed or at an uncontrolled field, but you can still do the visual approach. You are allowed to cancel in those conditions only if you in direct communication with an approved air/ground facility, such as FSS or company observer with a handheld (but UNICOM does not suffice), that can provide traffic info to you.
In a nutshell, the visual is still legal, but cancelling IFR is not unless you meet the requirements of the ops specs with regard to direct communication with an approved air/ground facility.
The primary reason you would want to jump through that extra hoop to be able to cancel IFR is if there is another aircraft trying to depart and being held for your arrival.

 

[Swerpipe]

No, you can not is MOST Ops Specs

I see where you're going with this, but I think you are slightly off the mark. I believe it is you can't cancel IFR after the tower is closed or at an uncontrolled field, but you can still do the visual approach. You are allowed to cancel in those conditions only if you in direct communication with an approved air/ground facility, such as FSS or company observer with a handheld (but UNICOM does not suffice), that can provide traffic info to you.
In a nutshell, the visual is still legal, but cancelling IFR is not unless you meet the requirements of the ops specs with regard to direct communication with an approved air/ground facility.
The primary reason you would want to jump through that extra hoop to be able to cancel IFR is if there is another aircraft trying to depart and being held for your arrival.

No, that's not correct. Most Part 135 Ops Spec are the same all over the US. Visual approaches are not allowed unless it is Class D, C, or B. That's in our Ops Spec and it has been the same in 3 other Ops Specs from 3 different certificates (they are usually copied by the FAA from one to another). Now, yours could be different. It is not an FAR, just Ops Spec. Also when landing in Class G airpace Part 135 the minimum vis is 2 miles as opposed to 1 and clear of clouds unless Class E goes to the surface.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To change it up...if you are cleared for the visual, don't use any published MAP. If you have to go around it is pattern altitude to enter the crosswind for the pattern until you get ATC tower instructions...

 

[Singlecoil]

No, that's not correct. Most Part 135 Ops Spec are the same all over the US. Visual approaches are not allowed unless it is Class D, C, or B. That's in our Ops Spec and it has been the same in 3 other Ops Specs from 3 different certificates (they are usually copied by the FAA from one to another). Now, yours could be different. It is not an FAR, just Ops Spec. Also when landing in Class G airpace Part 135 the minimum vis is 2 miles as opposed to 1 and clear of clouds unless Class E goes to the surface.

I agree most 135 ops specs are the same, as are most 121 ops specs. The two 121's and one 135 I have worked at had the same ops specs regarding visual approaches. I have done countless visual approaches to uncontrolled fields under IFR 135 and 121, mostly under 121.

Being in controlled airspace as referenced below has nothing to do with whether a control tower is in operation, perhaps that is the root of the confusion. Do these ring a bell?

"A flightcrew may accept a visual approach if VFR weather conditions exist, and the flight is in controlled airspace, under the control of an ATC facility, remains in VFR conditions, and is operated within 35 nautical miles of the destination airport.
Id. A flightcrew may cancel an IFR flight plan if VFR conditions exist and

(1) the flight is operated within the Class B, C, or D airspace associated with the destination airport; remains within controlled airspace; is radar monitored by ATC; and the flightcrew is in direct communication with the appropriate ATC facility; [or]

(2) The flightcrew is in direct communication with an air/ground communication facility which provides airport traffic advisories and at least one of the following additional conditions are met:

(a) The flight is operated within 10 nautical miles of the destination airport.

(b) Visual reference with the landing surface is established and can be maintained throughout the approach and landing."

 

[Swerpipe]

The devil is in the details...

Singlecoil,
Your Ops Specs read almost like mine but the differences are what change the meaning...

"a. Terminal arrival IFR-Visual approach or Charted Visual Flight Procedure. The flightcrew may accept a visual approach or a CVFP provided all the following CONDITIONS exist.
(1)The flight is operated and remains in Class B, C, or D airpace, within 35 miles of destination airport in Class E airspace
(2)The flight is under the control of an ATC facility

blah blah blah"

That operated and remains makes the difference in our Ops Specs but like I said it depends how it is written. Hope this clarifies it....

 

[Singlecoil]

I don't mean to sound like I'm telling you your own ops specs, but are you sure you are quoting that verbatim?

Are you sure it doesn't read:
(1)The flight is operated and remains in Class B, C, D airpace, or within 35 miles of destination airport in Class E airspace
(2)The flight is under the control of an ATC facility

You'll notice I moved the "or". I don't have my manuals handy so I'm going from memory here. I wonder if when they did the rewrite from TCA, TRSA, etc to the various classes that they transposed something there. Who knows? Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Swerpipe]

I don't mean to sound like I'm telling you your own ops specs, but are you sure you are quoting that verbatim?

Are you sure it doesn't read:
(1)The flight is operated and remains in Class B, C, D airpace, or within 35 miles of destination airport in Class E airspace
(2)The flight is under the control of an ATC facility

You'll notice I moved the "or". I don't have my manuals handy so I'm going from memory here. I wonder if when they did the rewrite from TCA, TRSA, etc to the various classes that they transposed something there. Who knows? Thanks for pointing that out.

Mine reads the way I wrote it verbatim. In any case Class E is controlled airspace and the surface of an uncontrolled airport is class G or uncontrolled airpace so that would disqualify (1). To be honest, it sounds stupid to be forced to fly the approach or cancel IFR prior to landing at uncontrolled airports but interestingly enough the end result is that at night or in instrument conditions we land out of the instrument approach and then cancel or in VFR day conditions we cancel IFR in the air and proceed VFR to the airport. So it probably results in safer operations and we never fly visual approaches at night to uncontrolled fields.

 

[USC328]

First of all, thanks for the great review. I have been great following what you all have said in my own 135 ops specs. I just wanted to point out one thing that may or may not apply to you all. Does this, in your ops specs, apply to all aircraft or just "Part 121 or Part 135 turbojet operations..."

Thanks in advance