Vietnam F-4 ace Randy Cunningham goes down in flames...

[Checkin' On]

I wound up going to Dragon Con this year in ATL. Gordo Cooper was there, hawking pics for $25.

I guess that's another pilot where retirement wasn't all that is was cracked up to be (read $$$). He was really, REALLY out of place with all the freak-a-zoid refugees from parent's basements. I mean, here was the fastest man alive (well, at one point) amongst the ultimate collection of wannabees.

In Gordo's defense, he was a pretty good sport, and told a couple of good yarns.

There was also a bit on Russian Space Disasters, and that was worth the price of admission. The Reds augered a few in, I dare say...and when they fcuk up, they do it wholesale.

C'In

 

[Gorilla]

Trivia - Who was the first pilot to exceed the speed of sound and survive? Was it:

A) G. DeHavilland
B) Chuck Yeager
C) George Welch

If you answered C, there's a good chance you are right! History was rewritten by the power$ that be so as to justify what was ultimately a pretty hefty waste of money.

Here's the situation... By the time 1947 rolled around, the X-1 program was in full swing, and the army had pumped million$ into it. At the same time, the North American company was developing the F-86 Sabre. On 1 Oct 47, and again on the 14th, both before Yeager's >Mach 1 flight, George put his XF-86 into a steep dive, both times generating a very strange boom heard by many, and also seeing the classic airspeed twitch which indicates breaking the sound barrier, seen to this day on all our fighters. Since the F-86 was proven to break the sound barrier in this exact same dive at later dates, there is little doubt that George beat Yeager twice.

The Army, angry because a private company had beat them, and to justify their expenditure, initially made both missions secret, then later placed Yeager and the X-1 on a pedestal, ignoring North American, George, and their superb F-86.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0113.shtml

Supersonic flight was in no way some great mystery. People knew even in the 1800's that gun projectiles easily surpassed mach 1. The Germans in WW2, if they had any desire, could easily have put a small capsule on the V-2 rocket and launched some poor schlub on a mach 6+ suborbital flight.

I could care less about Yeager, I just want history to tell the truth, and in this case, I believe the evidence is on George's side.

 

[agpilot34]

There's the point right there... Welch and the XF-86 had to DIVE to exceed Mach 1. I believe the X-1 accomplished it in level flight. You are correct that supersonic flight was not a mystery, even before Mach 1 was exceeded... the MYSTERY at the time was designing an aircraft that could exceed the speed of sound without coming apart or being uncontrollable.

 

[Gorilla]

My point was simply that Yeager was not the first. Yeager isn't heralded as "The Man who Broke The Sound Barrier in Level Flight", he is presented as "Supersonic guy #1. "

... the MYSTERY at the time was designing an aircraft that could exceed the speed of sound without coming apart or being uncontrollable.

And North American did it in the F-86.

 

[agpilot34]

Problem was, North American couldnt PROVE they did it prior to Yeager's flight. North American didnt even have the instruments to accurately measure the speeds until November of 1947. I'm not saying that Welch didnt break the barrier first, I'm saying that it cant be PROVED that he did. Hell, if you want to go with unproved theories, there's a WWII Luftwaffe pilot that CLAIMS he broke the sound barrier in April of '45. He was an ME 262 pilot that entered a dive from 40,000 ft, and claims to have exceeded mach 1 at that time. Another thing you have to consider with the F-86... the production prototypes were tested over the Salton Sea in Southern California. That area is 235' BELOW sea level. The dive was entered, speed was built up, and at the bottom they excecuted a 7.3g pull up. That pull up normally would have occured several hundred feet ABOVE sea level, but with the below sea level altitude at Salton, the F-86s took advantage of the denser air in the last few hundred feet. Everyone knows that indicated airspeed will read higher in denser air. I will definitely agree that there is much controversy over who was first if you really start studying it.

 

[A Squared]

Another thing you have to consider with the F-86... the production prototypes were tested over the Salton Sea in Southern California. That area is 235' BELOW sea level. The dive was entered, speed was built up, and at the bottom they excecuted a 7.3g pull up. That pull up normally would have occured several hundred feet ABOVE sea level, but with the below sea level altitude at Salton, the F-86s took advantage of the denser air in the last few hundred feet. Everyone knows that indicated airspeed will read higher in denser air.

OH, please! THat extra 235 feet? at the speed of sound, that would make a difference of 2.3 knots in the indicated airspeed. Given that the sonic boom was heard by a whole bunch of people, the relevance of the indicated airspeed escapes me. The difference in the speed of sound? that would be about .54 knots

The physical realities aside, I seem to recall that Welch's flights were made at Muroc, and that the sonic booms were heard at the Happy Bottom Riding Club.

 

[agpilot34]

Hey, I'm just tellin ya what the history reports say. Welch may have made his flight at Muroc, but the main testing area for the production F-86 was Salton Sea. And you are right, the altitude difference doesnt make up much as far as speed is concerned...but, that's whats in print as far as the history is concerned.

 

[Gorilla]

Uhhh, it is MUCH easier to exceed the speed of sound at higher altitudes. You need 700+ indicated at sea level, vs below 300 indicated at very high altitudes.

Welch, when he exceeded mach 1, was probably in the 30's. As he descended, the high-Q and high indicated airspeed probably forced his airplane subsonic below the 20's.

Proving it? OK, the instrumentation wasn't there. But the profile (which is proven to exceed mach 1 in the F-86), the sonic booms, the airspeed twitch, all point solidly to the F-86 being the first supersonic flight.

As for the Nazi pilot, I think it is entirely possible. If a flying Me-262 could be found, and if it can be shown to go supersonic in a dive, I'd happily acknowledge that in all probability a German combat pilot from WW2 was the first. I am not interested in anything except truth.

 

[aeronautic1]

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

 

[AA717driver]

Oh for crissake! Ok, I fly a plane that can exceed the speed of sound and survive. The GV has gone supersonic (according to GVflyer) in testing. It does not mean I fly a supersonic airplane.

I need a beer...TC

P.S.--I believe 90% (and that may be low) of all members of Congress are crooks. Sorry, just wanted to get back on topic.