VFR on vs. over the top

[JonJohn82]

Can someone explain the difference between VFR on top vs. VFR over the top?

Thanks,
Jon

 

[buckdanny]

VFR on top is an IFR clearance where you can fly at a VFR altitude and follow VFR flight rules (cloud clearance and visibility) while you remain in an IFR flight plan. Comes in very handy is many different situations.

VFR over the top simply means flying VFR on top of a cloud layer.

Buck

 

[JonJohn82]

Thanks for the reply!!

Jon

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

Purely for my own benefit, would you mind giving me an example where VFR on top would be handy?

 

[Singlecoil]

Purely for my own benefit, would you mind giving me an example where VFR on top would be handy?

You are in VFR conditions and want to climb or descend but ATC won't let you because of conflicting traffic. Request and receive a VFR-on-top clearance and you can climb or descend as you wish.

 

[100LL... Again!]

VFR on top:

IFR, pretending to be VFR, while VMC.



Over the top:

Scud-running, upside down.

 

[avbug]

Purely for my own benefit, would you mind giving me an example where VFR on top would be handy?

While working fires out of Camarillo (California), I sometimes needed to depart in the morning while the field was socked in with the marine layer. I couldn't work the fire under instrument flight rules, but needed them to get out. Often my need to go didn't permit filing a flight plan, so it was a simple matter to request IFR to VFR-on-top. Once visual, I'd cancel, and go on my way.

As a different example, despite a recent thread that suggests VFR-on-top never occurs in Class A airspace, I've been given that in lieu of a block, when maneuvering around clouds at altitude, enroute.

 

[Vector4fun]

One other note:

You'll save time and confusion with the controller if you make it plain when requesting your clearance whether you are requesting a VFR-on-Top clearance all the way to your destination;

OR,

Simply requesting a Local IFR clearance to climb above the cloud/haze layer in the local area, whereupon you plan to Cancel your IFR clearance and proceed VFR with/without Flight Following.

The difference is one is an IFR flight plan which is entered in the NAS, the other is only be a Local IFR clearance which never "escapes" the local Approach Control.

This is sometimes even confusing to controllers with less experience or no Instrument Rating.....

 

[Singlecoil]

Since Vector4Fun chimed in here, I have to ask a question. Okay, a couple of questions... Is VFR-On-Top a grey area for controllers? I ask that because Salt Lake treats it differently than Seattle Center. Scenario: I am enroute IFR to say Kalispell, MT, that has no tower or FSS and it is clear and a million, my company won't let me cancel IFR, and there is an IFR departure tying up the airspace. They tell me I can't descend and to expect holding due to the departure. I request a VFR-On-Top descent, but Salt Lake still won't let me descend and do an approach! This happened with more than one controller (it wasn't just "Unable Mabel"). Seattle Center would let you do your own thing on a VFR-On-Top clearance if you were enroute to a similar uncontrolled field; they would just remind you to cancel when on the ground. I found it frustrating that there was a lack of consistency regarding this practice, and I would appreciate your comments. To me as a pilot, a VFR-On-Top clearance means, "I'm going to maintain my own traffic and obstruction clearance so I don't need or expect any separation from you, the controller."

 

[Vector4fun]

d. When, in your judgment, there is reason to believe that flight in VFR conditions may become impractical, issue an alternative clearance which will ensure separation from all other aircraft for which you have separation responsibility.

Singlecoil,

The above section from the handbook basically leaves that judgement up to the controller. The typical VFR-on-Top flight stays VFR-on-Top only until time to descend for landing, and then at some point, the controller issues a hard altitude and vector, at which point the flight is considered IFR again. I'd have to say, *I* wouldn't have let you descend and land while a non-radar departure was released from the same airport, unless I'd gone back and read that chapter again carefully. The situation you described is just not one that has come up for me in 20+ years.

Good Question!

 

[A Squared]

>>>>>>I'd have to say, *I* wouldn't have let you descend and land while a non-radar departure was released from the same airport, unless I'd gone back and read that chapter again carefully. The situation you described is just not one that has come up for me in 20+ years.

We do this all the time here in Alaska ..at least the part about getting an IFR departure out when we are inbound VFR on top. It is quite common for the folks at Anchorage Center to climb an IFR departure through our altitude with less that minimum horizontal seperation. That being said, I have never used the VFR on top clearnece to descend and land, we always get a clearance for a visual aproach first.