usapa-vote authorized-''thestreet'' -2/20/08

[Andy]

Trust me, Andy, this was Prater's baby. He pushed and pushed and pushed until everyone went along with him. He distorted the issue, rigged the BRP in his favor to create a push poll to present to the EC and EB, etc... Do I think that more members of the EC and EB should have fought harder on this? Absolutely. Many of them fought pretty damned hard, though. There were numerous shouting matches that happened behind closed doors at the EC meeting, and the single dissenting voter wasn't the only one that was pissed off. He was just the only one that stood strong all the way to the end. The others fought pretty hard, but eventually gave in. They deserve some blame for that, but the truth is, the blame for this debacle rests solely with Prater, because it never would have happened in the first place if Prater wasn't in office. Place your blame where it belongs.

The Nuremberg defense? They voted for it in spite of being philosophically opposed to it?

I did plenty of work for National, and spent time in the Herndon and DC offices, but I was not a member of the EB or EC. But yes, I am certainly ashamed of Prater and his push polling and abuse of the system. But I don't blame the entire organization when the blame should really be directed at Prater himself. Neither should you.

With the way that ALPA's bylaws are set up, our elected reps are supposed to represent us at national. Not dissent and then roll when it's time to vote. That's not leadership. alpa is more like the Supreme Soviet than a representative democracy.

That simply never happened. The judge will soon throw out that lawsuit, and it will rest on the ash bin of anti-ALPA history just as the failed RJDC lawsuit now does.

Yes, just as alpa didn't go behind closed doors on the hill and get Oberstar to kick the age 65 bill out of committee when the timing was right.
I remember the HUGE push prior to the merge to get more carriers under the alpa umbrella. Are you telling me that nothing of the sort happened? Um, OK. And over time, I'll be told that alpa didn't welcome scabs back into the fold in order to get CAL to rejoin alpa.

Faulty premise. There are no competing interests in representing both the regionals and the majors. Sounds like you've been reading too much RJDC propaganda also.

Scope.
Quite frankly, I can't even believe that you'd write such a statement. Pinnacle and Northwest. United and Mesa. Delta and Comair. Need I go on?

 

[Andy]

At least screwing another pilot group isn't in ALPA's charter. The law is against USAPA's aims.

I haven't read USAPA's charter, so I can't speak intelligently on that matter. I don't like USAPA's goals, but if it sends a wake up call to Herndon, then I'm all in favor of it.

It may not be in alpa's charter to screw parts of the pilots they represent, but it sure is clear in their actions.

 

[Redmeat]

Andy, I know you're upset about how Prater handled Age-60, but are you really dumb enough to let a single issue dictate your thinking? I always figured you for a much smarter guy. Prater's time will pass. He'll likely only serve a single term. That means only another 2 years and 10 months until this guy is gone. His mishandling of the Age-60 issue has cost us a lot, but throwing out the entire union because of Prater's mishandling of Age-60 is absurd.

What will surface as the "next guys" personal agenda when he is elected in that corrupt good ol' boy outfit?

 

[PCL_128]

The Nuremberg defense? They voted for it in spite of being philosophically opposed to it?

They voted for it because after much fighting and screaming back and forth, Prater somehow managed to convince them that the rule was going to change anyway and that this was the only way to handle the situation. I still disagree with this assessment to this day, but Prater convinced them.

With the way that ALPA's bylaws are set up, our elected reps are supposed to represent us at national.

ALPA operates as a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. You elect leaders that you trust, and they represent your interests based on their best assessment of the situation. Despite your assertion, nothing in the Bylaws suggests that the reps are required to vote the way that a majority of the minority suggested in a poll. To the contrary, the Bylaws are extremely clear that the membership is unable to mandate their representatives to vote a certain way. Your Congressman is supposed to represent the interests of his constituents, but that doesn't mean that he has to poll his constituents to get their opinion on every issue and then vote the way they tell him. He is elected by you to represent your interests to the best of his determination. ALPA operates the same way. If you don't like that, then you can always propose a resolution to change the Bylaws to a system of direct democracy. But I don't think you'd like the results. Direct democracies are usually abject failures.

Yes, just as alpa didn't go behind closed doors on the hill and get Oberstar to kick the age 65 bill out of committee when the timing was right.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but nothing was "behind closed doors." ALPA's official policy had changed out in the open for everyone to see. You knew that the new policy was in favor of the change. Did you honestly expect them not to lobby on the Hill in favor of their new position?

I remember the HUGE push prior to the merge to get more carriers under the alpa umbrella. Are you telling me that nothing of the sort happened?

That's exactly what I'm telling you. Captain Woerth never actually made organizing a huge priority. Bringing new carriers into ALPA was something that he cared about, but he placed many other issues ahead of that. The idea that he put everything on the line and risked the entire future of the Association just to recruit the AMR pilots is absurd. He honestly never cared that much about it. Prater is actually the much bigger fan of organizing activities. Duane wouldn't even allocate the funds.

And over time, I'll be told that alpa didn't welcome scabs back into the fold in order to get CAL to rejoin alpa.

ALPA accepted the SCABs because it was the only way to bring the loyal CAL strikers back into the Association. At CAL, the SCABs make up such a huge portion of the pilot group that it would have been impossible to merge the IACP with ALPA without the support of at least a significant minority of them. The decision was made by the BOD that it was more distasteful to turn their backs on the loyal strikers than it would be to "forgive but not forget" the SCABs.

Scope.
Quite frankly, I can't even believe that you'd write such a statement. Pinnacle and Northwest. United and Mesa. Delta and Comair. Need I go on?

Scope is not a conflict of interest. It is beneficial to all pilots at both the regional and major levels.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't like USAPA's goals, but if it sends a wake up call to Herndon, then I'm all in favor of it.

Ever heard the expression "cutting off your nose to spite your face?" It seems apt in light of your quote.

 

[PCL_128]

What will surface as the "next guys" personal agenda when he is elected in that corrupt good ol' boy outfit?

The "outfit" is not corrupt. Certain people may be corrupt, but the organization itself is not. And what you don't seem to want to accept is that any organization will be corrupted if you put corrupt people in leadership roles. uSAPa will be no different. You are drawing from the same pool of potential leaders at USAirways with uSAPa that you are with ALPA. Changing the name and logo on the stationary won't eliminate the corruption of your own leaders. A real solution is a recall of the corrupt leaders. Decertification is a counter-productive act.

 

[TurboAWD]

Airline mgmt must be loving this talk about decertify ALPA.

And that probably tells you that it is bad for pilots.

Turbo

 

[TWA Dude]

I haven't read USAPA's charter, so I can't speak intelligently on that matter.

I'll help you. Section 8: Objectives of the USAPA, paragraph D:

To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.​

http://1.usairlinepilots.org/misc_docs/USAPA-Constitution.pdf

As you know, the combined seniority list was already fairly created by an arbitrator who carefully considered each group's career expectations so any action to bypass that arbitration is unethical and ultimately illegal. USAPA wishes to utililze the numerical majority of the East to screw the West. Merger policies exist precisely to prevent such actions.

I don't like USAPA's goals, but if it sends a wake up call to Herndon, then I'm all in favor of it.

Wake up call for what? What exactly is a union supposed to do when one side doesn't like the result of a binding arbitration? If the sides could agree there wouldn't have been an arbitration. Arbitration is the last-resort to end conflicts and as such the arbitrator is the highest authority in such matters. USAPA seeks to muscle around that authority. That's not legitimate protest; that's called thuggery and you're encouraging them.

It may not be in alpa's charter to screw parts of the pilots they represent, but it sure is clear in their actions.

And they should be held accountable, no doubt. That's a seperate issue. You've heard the expression "two wrongs don't make a right'?

You may not know that several years ago there was a strong movement at AWA to dump ALPA for an in-house union, AWAPA. In fact, one of the leaders of that group is our current MEC Chairman. They never got enough cards for an election but suffice it to say there are plenty of AWA'ers who wouldn't mind another union taking over. But it's painfully obvious that USAPA is only popular on the East because they've promised to ensure the Nicolau Award is never put into action. ALPA didn't cause the East's problems. Bankruptcies and a skewed sense of entitlement did.

 

[Andy]

They voted for it because after much fighting and screaming back and forth, Prater somehow managed to convince them that the rule was going to change anyway and that this was the only way to handle the situation. I still disagree with this assessment to this day, but Prater convinced them.

So you're telling me that just about every elected rep rides on a short school bus?

ALPA operates as a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. You elect leaders that you trust, and they represent your interests based on their best assessment of the situation. Despite your assertion, nothing in the Bylaws suggests that the reps are required to vote the way that a majority of the minority suggested in a poll. To the contrary, the Bylaws are extremely clear that the membership is unable to mandate their representatives to vote a certain way. Your Congressman is supposed to represent the interests of his constituents, but that doesn't mean that he has to poll his constituents to get their opinion on every issue and then vote the way they tell him. He is elected by you to represent your interests to the best of his determination. ALPA operates the same way. If you don't like that, then you can always propose a resolution to change the Bylaws to a system of direct democracy. But I don't think you'd like the results. Direct democracies are usually abject failures.

Do you really believe that tripe? Sad.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but nothing was "behind closed doors." ALPA's official policy had changed out in the open for everyone to see. You knew that the new policy was in favor of the change. Did you honestly expect them not to lobby on the Hill in favor of their new position?

Learn how the legislative process works. You'll find Committee chairs wield a great deal of power. While it's possible to bring a bill out of committee through use of a discharge petition, that's unlikely especially in this case. Oberstar has been bought and paid for by alpa; they pulled the strings and he released the bill.

Captain Woerth never actually made organizing a huge priority. Bringing new carriers into ALPA was something that he cared about, but he placed many other issues ahead of that. The idea that he put everything on the line and risked the entire future of the Association just to recruit the AMR pilots is absurd. He honestly never cared that much about it. Prater is actually the much bigger fan of organizing activities. Duane wouldn't even allocate the funds.

There was a well publicized push to get as many pilots under the alpa umbrella as possible. To state otherwise is equivalent to stating that the color of the sky used to be green but now it's blue.
And how do you conclude that the entire future of alpa was at risk to recruit AMR pilots? No, the entire future of alpa is now at risk due to their handling of age 65. Any under the table deals with APA were barely noticed.

Scope is not a conflict of interest. It is beneficial to all pilots at both the regional and major levels.

Great; I'll remember that when scope moves up to 110 seat aircraft at the regionals. I can see how that's beneficial to all of the guppy drivers at United.

 

[Andy]

Airline mgmt must be loving this talk about decertify ALPA.

And that probably tells you that it is bad for pilots.

Turbo

I'm more convinced than ever that inhouse union is the way to go.