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Upt/supt
- Thread starter Erk183
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talondriver
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SUPT is what the USAF is doing now (unfortunately).
Students start with the T-37 for basic flight training. Then they split off into four different "tracks" depending on desires and class ranking.
-Ft Rucker, AL for helicopter training
-T-38s for fighter/bombers at their SUPT base
-T-1s (beechjet) for tanker/transports at their SUPT base
-T-44s (king air) to NAS Corpus Christi, TX for C-130 lead-in
In UPT, everyone went through T-37s and T-38s regardless of what MWS you were going to.
UPT doesn't exist anymore.
Students start with the T-37 for basic flight training. Then they split off into four different "tracks" depending on desires and class ranking.
-Ft Rucker, AL for helicopter training
-T-38s for fighter/bombers at their SUPT base
-T-1s (beechjet) for tanker/transports at their SUPT base
-T-44s (king air) to NAS Corpus Christi, TX for C-130 lead-in
In UPT, everyone went through T-37s and T-38s regardless of what MWS you were going to.
UPT doesn't exist anymore.
Cheesehead
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Old School
There is no difference at all. UPT is the old school term for the now correct SUPT acronym. However, old guys like myself probably still refer to it as UPT - that's why you see and hear both UPT and SUPT. All the AF pilots who trained prior to the T-1 coming on-line attended UPT when everyone flew the T-37 and then the T-38. Would-be heavy pilots and would-be fighter pilots were trained using the exact same syllabus throughout the entire program. When the T-1 showed up (1993-94 time frame), UPT became Specialized UPT or SUPT. Everyone flies the T-37, then track selects to either the T-1, or T-38 where they "specialize" in becoming a heavy driver or start the de-programming and re-programming process of becoming a fighter guy/gal. Columbus, Laughlin, and Vance are the SUPT bases. Sheppard is the home of ENJJPT (Euro-Nato Joint Jet Pilot Training) and I don't think that program changed much when the other bases started flying the mighty Jayhawk. Probably more info than you wanted, but hopefully it clears things up a little.
There is no difference at all. UPT is the old school term for the now correct SUPT acronym. However, old guys like myself probably still refer to it as UPT - that's why you see and hear both UPT and SUPT. All the AF pilots who trained prior to the T-1 coming on-line attended UPT when everyone flew the T-37 and then the T-38. Would-be heavy pilots and would-be fighter pilots were trained using the exact same syllabus throughout the entire program. When the T-1 showed up (1993-94 time frame), UPT became Specialized UPT or SUPT. Everyone flies the T-37, then track selects to either the T-1, or T-38 where they "specialize" in becoming a heavy driver or start the de-programming and re-programming process of becoming a fighter guy/gal. Columbus, Laughlin, and Vance are the SUPT bases. Sheppard is the home of ENJJPT (Euro-Nato Joint Jet Pilot Training) and I don't think that program changed much when the other bases started flying the mighty Jayhawk. Probably more info than you wanted, but hopefully it clears things up a little.
talondriver
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Toro
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There is a difference between S/UPT
Cheesehead, there's a difference and you even explain the principle difference in your post. Not only is there the obvious difference in the airframe and the syllabus, it's a difference in mentality. The reason SUPT came about is that the AF felt UPT - with guys only flying the T-38 - did a great job in getting students into a fighter mentality and learning to fly good formation. But the training didn't prepare them for what they would encounter in the heavy world in terms of CRM. There was more of a single-seat mentality engrained in students while going through T-38s, which had to be undone once they got to the heavies.
The T-38s continue to emphasize the single seat mentality while the T-1s emphasize crew coordination and the pilot/co-pilot roles. In the T-38, you are taught to act like a wingman, think for yourself and speak only when spoken to. In the T-1, you are part of a crew and decisions/actions are always made together. Do I personally think an entire new airframe needed to be introduced to solve this problem? No, but I've never flown heavies, so I don't exactly have a lot of room to say.
Another difference is that UPT graduates who went on to fly heavies still had the opportunity to return as T-38 instructors and crossflow to fighters if the opportunity arose because they had been through 38s as a student. With SUPT, this is no longer an option.
Cheesehead, there's a difference and you even explain the principle difference in your post. Not only is there the obvious difference in the airframe and the syllabus, it's a difference in mentality. The reason SUPT came about is that the AF felt UPT - with guys only flying the T-38 - did a great job in getting students into a fighter mentality and learning to fly good formation. But the training didn't prepare them for what they would encounter in the heavy world in terms of CRM. There was more of a single-seat mentality engrained in students while going through T-38s, which had to be undone once they got to the heavies.
The T-38s continue to emphasize the single seat mentality while the T-1s emphasize crew coordination and the pilot/co-pilot roles. In the T-38, you are taught to act like a wingman, think for yourself and speak only when spoken to. In the T-1, you are part of a crew and decisions/actions are always made together. Do I personally think an entire new airframe needed to be introduced to solve this problem? No, but I've never flown heavies, so I don't exactly have a lot of room to say.
Another difference is that UPT graduates who went on to fly heavies still had the opportunity to return as T-38 instructors and crossflow to fighters if the opportunity arose because they had been through 38s as a student. With SUPT, this is no longer an option.
Cheesehead
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Wrong Impression
It sounded like Erk 183 was confused and thought there are two different programs out there for pilot training. I was a tweet IP for almost 4 years and I'm very aware of everything that was spelled out for me. All I was trying to say to Erk was disregard the UPT acronym because now, it's SUPT. I guess I should have said UPT doesn't exist anymore, so just worry about SUPT. Tough crowd.
It sounded like Erk 183 was confused and thought there are two different programs out there for pilot training. I was a tweet IP for almost 4 years and I'm very aware of everything that was spelled out for me. All I was trying to say to Erk was disregard the UPT acronym because now, it's SUPT. I guess I should have said UPT doesn't exist anymore, so just worry about SUPT. Tough crowd.
Spur
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Re: There is a difference between S/UPT
Bzzzt... wrong answer.
The REAL reason for the T-1 was the T-38s life expectancy was too short with the number of pilots it was required to train. In order to keep the AF from having to buy an expensive advanced trainer replacement, the evil SUPT scheme was concocted.
Think about it... The AF decides a two seat A/C cant teach CRM, so they go out and get another two seat A/C? Yes there is a difference in how T-38 CRM might be taught vs T-1 CRM, but its still CRM. Also, I imagine there is some crew coordination going on in the F-15E, and the Bone as well.
The transition to SUPT was an error IMHO... there are many more drawbacks than most people realize...
BTW--- Vance has JSUPT. (Joint SUPT)
Toro said:
Bzzzt... wrong answer.
The REAL reason for the T-1 was the T-38s life expectancy was too short with the number of pilots it was required to train. In order to keep the AF from having to buy an expensive advanced trainer replacement, the evil SUPT scheme was concocted.
Think about it... The AF decides a two seat A/C cant teach CRM, so they go out and get another two seat A/C? Yes there is a difference in how T-38 CRM might be taught vs T-1 CRM, but its still CRM. Also, I imagine there is some crew coordination going on in the F-15E, and the Bone as well.
The transition to SUPT was an error IMHO... there are many more drawbacks than most people realize...
BTW--- Vance has JSUPT. (Joint SUPT)
Last edited:
MercuryPilot
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Yahtzee
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Old School
Agreed...there is certainly a differece. Having flown T-38s and instructed in T-1s for nearly four years, I'd say the difference is about 35 extra pilots per year for the USAF with the T-1.
The three bases using T-1s graduate approx 14 pilots from T-1s every three weeks. Over one year Columbus, Vance and Laughlin produce approx 700-750 pilots from T-1s.
There is no doubt in my mind the bottom 5% of T-1 students would wash out of T-38s. Some classes are better than others, some classes have a lot of catfish. Like I've mentioned several times, some studs simply can't process information fast enough to fly a T-38. Many studs struggle in the T-1 with all it's glass, and having an IP right next to them to do many tasks they would have to do on their own in a T-38 (ie, raise the gear & flaps, and talk on the radio.)
The T-1 was purchased to extend the service life of the T-38 and provide a better medium to train heavy pilots. It's doing both well, but Wing Commanders are pressured to produce pilots. That pressure flows downhill to the Flt Commanders and line IPs. Even when Flt CCs have told Squadron CCs some studs don't belong, Sq CC's know the CRB process and the likelihood of reinstatements. To washout a student, the line IP and Flt CC have to understand I-D-E.
Identify-Document-Eliminate.
Studs can and do washout in SUPT, but not nearly the rate they washed out in UPT. The facts are at Randolph AFB. This is by no means an endorsement to slack. I have helped several T-1 studs find other lines of work, because I don't believe anyone should wear USAF Wings for class attendance. UPT had teeth....Many T-1 IPs believe SUPT needs the same teeth.
Remember I'm talking about a small % of studs in the T-1 and this is in no way a slame on the majority of T-1 grads, especially those who excelled in the T-1 and would have excelled in the T-38 had they choosen to fly it.
Not everyone was meant to be a pilot. Unfortunately, the T-1 can blur the distinction, when T-38s kept it fairly black & white.
Yahtz
P.S. Which makes a better heavy pilot: the T-1 or the T-38? I can't say, but I do know the T-1 is far more comfortable and it can carry two sets of golf clubs, a surfboard (yes I've seen this), or snowboards and a lot of luggage.
talondriver said:
Agreed...there is certainly a differece. Having flown T-38s and instructed in T-1s for nearly four years, I'd say the difference is about 35 extra pilots per year for the USAF with the T-1.
The three bases using T-1s graduate approx 14 pilots from T-1s every three weeks. Over one year Columbus, Vance and Laughlin produce approx 700-750 pilots from T-1s.
There is no doubt in my mind the bottom 5% of T-1 students would wash out of T-38s. Some classes are better than others, some classes have a lot of catfish. Like I've mentioned several times, some studs simply can't process information fast enough to fly a T-38. Many studs struggle in the T-1 with all it's glass, and having an IP right next to them to do many tasks they would have to do on their own in a T-38 (ie, raise the gear & flaps, and talk on the radio.)
The T-1 was purchased to extend the service life of the T-38 and provide a better medium to train heavy pilots. It's doing both well, but Wing Commanders are pressured to produce pilots. That pressure flows downhill to the Flt Commanders and line IPs. Even when Flt CCs have told Squadron CCs some studs don't belong, Sq CC's know the CRB process and the likelihood of reinstatements. To washout a student, the line IP and Flt CC have to understand I-D-E.
Identify-Document-Eliminate.
Studs can and do washout in SUPT, but not nearly the rate they washed out in UPT. The facts are at Randolph AFB. This is by no means an endorsement to slack. I have helped several T-1 studs find other lines of work, because I don't believe anyone should wear USAF Wings for class attendance. UPT had teeth....Many T-1 IPs believe SUPT needs the same teeth.
Remember I'm talking about a small % of studs in the T-1 and this is in no way a slame on the majority of T-1 grads, especially those who excelled in the T-1 and would have excelled in the T-38 had they choosen to fly it.
Not everyone was meant to be a pilot. Unfortunately, the T-1 can blur the distinction, when T-38s kept it fairly black & white.
Yahtz
P.S. Which makes a better heavy pilot: the T-1 or the T-38? I can't say, but I do know the T-1 is far more comfortable and it can carry two sets of golf clubs, a surfboard (yes I've seen this), or snowboards and a lot of luggage.
Last edited:
talondriver
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Yahtzee
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Talondriver,
So I take it you're agreeing with me. Like I said, some T-1 studs struggle in the T-1 with an IP to talk on the correct radio (UHF & VHF).
T-38C studs have to manage the workload by themselves. Many T-1 studs would never solo a T-38, and the AF would have fewer pilots without the T-1. However, the T-1 didn't lower the standards...that was the leadership who developed the "unlimited 89 rides" rule. You have to admit four 89 rides in a T-1 is a bit ridiculous...especially after three 89 rides in a Tweet.
Peace
Yahtz
P.S. Check out the Silver Wings classified ad section tomorrow. There's gonna be a nice ad that goes something like this..."Wanted: Large quantities of Girl Scout cookies. Call xxx-xxxx between 7 & 9 PM."
The phone number belongs to a T-1 Lt Col in my old squadron. Ask Pat B. about the ad....he's gonna have to listen to the Lt Col yelling about all the phone calls.
So I take it you're agreeing with me. Like I said, some T-1 studs struggle in the T-1 with an IP to talk on the correct radio (UHF & VHF).
T-38C studs have to manage the workload by themselves. Many T-1 studs would never solo a T-38, and the AF would have fewer pilots without the T-1. However, the T-1 didn't lower the standards...that was the leadership who developed the "unlimited 89 rides" rule. You have to admit four 89 rides in a T-1 is a bit ridiculous...especially after three 89 rides in a Tweet.
Peace
Yahtz
P.S. Check out the Silver Wings classified ad section tomorrow. There's gonna be a nice ad that goes something like this..."Wanted: Large quantities of Girl Scout cookies. Call xxx-xxxx between 7 & 9 PM."
The phone number belongs to a T-1 Lt Col in my old squadron.
Ask Pat B. about the ad....he's gonna have to listen to the Lt Col yelling about all the phone calls. 
Chickenhawk
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Typical AF answer. Original question...what's the difference between the UPT and SUPT.
Standby.
We'll need a new FCIF and PRF to answer this question...and of course a write in change (stand by for the pubs revision out early spring...please submit any changes you might have). If this question isn't clearly outlined in the syllabus, talk to OGV for guidance on properly answering the question, which will communicate with 17th, 19th, and the 57eleventh AF wings to bring about a firm and understandable solution that can thence be disseminated among the SUPT bases. Failure to comply and coordinate with all applicable directives will result in a syllabus deviation which will require a waiver......what was you question again?
Luv you Spur.
Standby.
We'll need a new FCIF and PRF to answer this question...and of course a write in change (stand by for the pubs revision out early spring...please submit any changes you might have). If this question isn't clearly outlined in the syllabus, talk to OGV for guidance on properly answering the question, which will communicate with 17th, 19th, and the 57eleventh AF wings to bring about a firm and understandable solution that can thence be disseminated among the SUPT bases. Failure to comply and coordinate with all applicable directives will result in a syllabus deviation which will require a waiver......what was you question again?
Luv you Spur.
talondriver
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