UPT questions for veterans

[mgg20]

I'm going to OTS then UPT in a few months and i have a couple general questions:
1. How do you get your ATC call sign in a trainer, is it assigned by squadron, aircraft, base, ...?
2. How far are the T-1 cross countrys, like columbus to seattle, much longer, shorter??
3. How much better prepared are you for upt if you come in with all of your civ ratings, i've heard you're much better off, and also that you have to forget it all so you can re-learn the AF way.

~Thanks

 

[Grizz]

It's been 20 years since I did the UPT thing so I'll answer what I can.

1) Each squadron at each base has it's own call sign.

2) Don't know - I went through in T-38s.

3) I was in the Navy as an enlisted guy and once selected for AF OTS, I joined the Aero Club and got about 8 hours before going to OTS. I wanted more but economics and time were not in my favor. I then went through the Flight Screening Program where you got about 14 hours prior to UPT. At the time I felt pretty well prepared for UPT especially since the FSP was conducted a lot like UPT at the time. It also had a very high washout rate. Lots of guys never made it out of Hondo.

In T-37s, I think the guys that had more civilian time did better. By the time we hit T-38s, I don't think it mattered one bit. We lost the majority of our guys in tweets but we still lost a couple in 38s. We started with 63 candidates. 39 pilots graduated.

If I had to do it again, I would have gotten more time before showing up at UPT.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Keep an open mind, help out your classmates, don't be a know it all, and run below the radar and you will do fine. Also, chairfly your tail off to learn the pattern. It is just flying with a different dialect--most of the rules are the same and even the RSU overhead pattern has some similarities to an uncontrolled field in some of the ways we operate.

Now that we are doing some uncontrolled OPS to practice engine out scenarios in the T-6, I think some Pre-UPT experience with CTAF ops will be very helpful.

Good luck

 

[T1bubba]

T-1 XC's are much shorter, you have far too much training to do to get much cruise time. From Enid I normally went to San Antonio, New Orleans, or Pensacola. It's possible to go farther but you'll get less training and with your instrument checkride (and assignment night) coming up you'll probably want to get as much training as possible.

 

[talondriver]

Keep an open mind, help out your classmates, don't be a know it all, and run below the radar and you will do fine...

I've had students who were 2000+ hr commuter jocks. The thing is I didn't find out 'til the end of the program. They were usually the good sticks.

I don't like asking students about their prior time. If they want to tell me, they can. Those are usually the ones that show me nothing spectacular in the jet.

A UPT classmate of mine with high civilian time almost went on military hold for insisting the instructor was wrong in front of the class about an unimportant FAA procedure. Some fights warrant an early separation to maintain respect for both. God gave you a bottom lip to bite in situations like that and I'm sure you'll bite yours a couple of times during your training.

As for question #3 (at least in reference to T-38s): What T1bubba said. And...breaking a jet at the other end of the country won't score extra points with the Sq DO.

 

[av8tor4239]

what the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**

 

[Huggyu2]

Callsign question: do you mean "callsign" as in your personal callsign; or the callsign you will use to talk to Center on the radio? If you're referring to the radio callsign with Center, that's specific to each unit.

I found that students with extra flight time had the advantage early on in Tweets, but that it became less of an issue as everyone else's learning curve caught up.
As mentioned above, just get really smart on the local procedures and don't fall back too much on "that's how I used to do it".

 

[FlyIllini]

I finished tweets about a year ago & I had about 600 total and a cfi ticket.. It really was helpful because, if nothing else, I didn't have to spend as much time concentrating on basic flying principles as the zero time guys, thus I had more time/brain cells to focus on the military stuff & tweet-isms. Subsequently, the training 'firehose' didn't blast me quite as hard, and I had an easier time maintaining a manageable level of stress throughout tweets than some of my classmates. (I'm sure those of you who have been thru tweets remember how much stress messed with you during that time.)

That being said, however, the previous posts are correct.. by the time tweet phase is over, everyone is basically on an even keel, regardless of previous flying experience (there's always exceptions)...

Economics as they are, and flying being one of the most expensive hobbies around, here's a couple of tidbits to book up on if you do elect to break down & buy some civilian flight training:

1) Call your local guard/reserve base to see if there are any recent UPT grads there who are CFI's.. and fly with them

2) Get some basic instrument training.. Learn how to fly an attitude indicator (or ADI for you military types).. Sounds obvious enough, but makes a HUGE difference

3) Insist on getting some RMI training.. You'll probably have to find a simulator for this one, as few general aviation trainers have these.. Learn how to track to/from a VOR, how to intercept a particular radial, and if possible perhaps the ever dreaded Point-to-point (this one generally requires a CFI with military experience)

4) if you go to Columbus and get your IFT in that area, go to GTR (golden triangle regional airport) & get your training from Accessible Aviation (google the name, they've got a great website for UPT inbounds).. These guys are retired tweet instructors who now get paid civilian wages to teach in the T-37 simulators, and they moonlite as civilian CFI's... No better source than that!!

Hope it helps,

FG

Above all, (this is basically a repeat of previous posts) despite whatever prior flight experience you may have, know your role, why you're there, & which way the food chain works.. you'll be at the bottom!!

 

[JimNtexas]

I have come to believe that in flying, and in all other learning environments, that the more you forget about your prior experience, the more your prior experience will help you.

In Zen, you are told to approach every learning experience with a "beginners mind". Push your prior flying into your subconscious and it will be a great asset. Wear it on your sleeve and you may find it wrapped around your neck, and not in a good way.

This doesn't stop with just UPT. When you transition from the F-35 to the F-22, you'll again need to forget everything you learned in the JSF so your mind can absorb the Raptor Way.

Someday you'll retire and go to the local FBO for a checkout in a C172. When that happens, you'll need to forget being a jet pilot and become a SEL beginner again.

 

[Mongoose69]

I'm on the other side of the coin from the responses so far, so here's my $0.02:

I was one of the zero time guys entering UPT. Not only did I have no civilian time, but they shut down Hondo (T-3s - the semi-equivalent to the current IFT) 2 weeks before I was supposed to go. So my first hour in a T-37 was no kidding my very first hour in a plane as the Pilot. One other guy in my class was in the same boat as myself. He SIE'ed after 2 months. I finished first in my Tweet class, and ended up going to the F-15E.

So what do you take out of this? Well, the answer to your Question #3 is like the answer to almost any other avaiation question: It depends.

Cheers,
Mongoose

 

[pkober]

My 2 cents.

It's all about attitude. I had 2000+ hours when I went to UPT, but my attitude was that I was there to learn. If the way they showed me was different then I had been doing, I adapted and did it that way. Generally the "new" way I was being shown was better then the "old" way. You have to remember they are teaching you to fly USAF aircraft. Who better to teach you how to fly the USAF way than USAF instructor's?

If they ask if you have prior flying time be honest. They will tell by your attitude if your prior time matters. You also have to remember you are a "stupid" butter bar and will never win an arguement with a UPT IP.

Attitude is everything.

Good Luck !

CLAMBAKE

 

[RJP]

It's all about attitude.

100% true.

If you've got 10k hours and act like a dick, they'll find a way to get rid of you. If you've never seen an airplane before and try your best with a good attitude, they'll work with you as much as they can.

 

[Nocturnal1]

I'm another retired "old dude" but got these tid-bits of advice a while ago and hopefully they may be some help to you:
--First and foremost, RELAX, RELAX, RELAX (Wiggle the fingers and toes)
--Ops limits and BOLD FACE-Cold and verbatim
--Flying is supposed to be fun, enjoy it
--Remember, the guy teaching you might be a 192 hour wonder, otherwise known as a First Assignment Instructor Pilot (FAIP)...he/she doesn't know everything
--Let your test scores and flying speak for you...keep your piehole shut unless asked
--Finally, regardless of what you're told, fighter pilots are not walking dieties...all flying jobs are important or cool in their own way. Talk to as many Major Weapon Service (MWS) IP's as you can and decide which airplane/mission you'd like the best...have a couple of alternate choices.

Good Luck

 

[Ivan]

We washed one dude out of my class at Sheppard...the 2800 hr CFII. He had the skillz, but, like everyone is alluding to, he knew how to do it better than the IPs (according to him) and refused to learn "our way." Being a horrible Officer and a d*** didn't help him his case, either. The IPs wanted him gone so bad they busted him for a VFR pattern entry...on an Instrument checkride.

You'll do fine. Expect to hit a snag somewhere, be humble, don't be afraid to ask for help from your bros or the IPs, and by the time you're done you'll know what you want to fly. Don't listen to the unnecessary dig at fighter pilots. I've flown fighters for 10 years and haven't met anyone who thought they were a "walking deity." Hell, I've met more Talon II drivers who thought they could do no wrong than I have cocky fighter guys.

It's a funny thing. Everyone hates those arrogant fighter pilots...except the ones they know. We get unfairly stereotyped. People see the Great Santini or Top Gun, hear some old adages (my favorite: "Fighter Pilots eat their young," as in we crush our Lt's...what BS) and think they know it all about the fighter life. We're victims! (j/k). Anyway, there are assholes in every community...being a prick isn't the dole domain of fighter pilots. My twin bro is an MC-130 pilot, and we've had many laughs at the expense of my buds and his buds about the misperceptions in various communities. Don't let anyone tell you about any other community unless they've been a part of it.

 

[learherkjay]

As a former T-1 IP, about 8 months ago, people who have civilian time do well depending on what their experience is. The flying that you will do in UPT is vastly different than civilian flying - i.e. closed patterns, formation, AF holding rules, etc.... The best part about civilian experience is that you have been in airplane, you are comfortable talking on the radios, and you know what the instruments do. Beyond that, everything is wash. Sometimes guys without any experience do better because they have no negative transfer. They have never done it before, so when they do it like you tell them - it works out. Some civilian folks cannot get past what they know and applying to how the AF teaches you to do something. AND, I think you find very few instructors who claim to know everything. AF UPT instructors also have a much better knowledge of FAR/AIM than in the past (at least in the T-1 side of the house). So, if you can take the big picture from your civilian experience and apply it to the big picture of how the AF wants it, you will be fine. But, if you make excuses for your mistakes by saying, "well in the Cessna we did it this way...", you won't win over any friends. Don't sweat that small stuff - it ain't worth it.
As far as Cross Countries - the better trips are the ones that stay closer to base so you can get your requirements done and get on the ground. From Vance most XCs went to Houston, San Antonio, Colorado Springs, Albuquerque, Biloxi, Ft Worth Alliance, and sometimes Tucson, Pensacola. It's only one weekend in the T-1 - very small part of the syllabus. Good luck.

 

[ifleyelearz]

On my T-1 cross country we made the journey from Del Rio to Nellis the first day. Then Nellis to Tinker on day 2. Then Tinker to Keesler, day 3. Then back home to Laughlin. Not only did we get a lot of training in, but we managed to spend 20 hrs on the ground in Vegas. Not a bad way to spend a cross country.
From what I hear though, I'm not too sure they let you go out to Vegas anymore from Laughlin.

 

[Big Duke Six]

I had about 450 hrs civ before I went in, no multi time. I went through Vance about 14 years ago, so here goes:

One of the best things for me at UPT was making friends with a guy who was about 4 months ahead of me in the pipeline. He gave me an excellent heads up as to what to expect. Mind you, the present will always be what counts, so don't try to study ahead, but he was a great help when it came to helping me learn flows in the Tweet and things like that. These concepts were foreign to me as a civilian, where you learn to "read and do" on the checklist. Also, we'd get together and "fly" formation in the parking lot with each other. Sounds stupid, but it sure gave me an idea what to expect when I got in the air. The formation phases were the most fun, I thought, probably because of him.

In 38's, nothing will prepare you other than finding an airplane beforehand in which you can fly instrument approaches at 300 kts, and practice landings at 150-190 kts. The only guy we lost in 38's was early on, because he just couldn't get the landings down. Every one of the other 10 (out of 22) we lost was in Tweets.

In both phases, know your Ops Limits/bold face early. Make flashcards. Be humble and honest with yourself and your IP's about your shortcomings but always make sure they know you're motivated to improve. Be disciplined with your time off, but do remember to give yourself time to relax and get your mind off things occasionally. There is time to have fun, just know when it is. Remember, some guys will have to study more than others, so don't necessarily do what your buddy is doing.

Realize it can be a little political. The guys who get out and get some face time at the club and interacted well with the IP's seemed to do well in the program. The wallflowers, not so well. There may be a lesson there. On the other hand, the wallflowers may have been wallflowers because they were not great students and couldn't afford to spend time socializing, I don't know. The point is, give 120% while you're there, and get to the club when you can.

Oh, and don't date the Wing Commanders' daughter.

Over and out.

 

[mgg20]

thanks for all of your insight guys. I don't think I have enough time to be real cocky, but I've got enough to feel comfortable in a plane. I really can't wait to get in something faster than a Seminole. For you guys who have gone through it more recently, does the T-6 makes thing much easier? Some have said since it is glass and everything usually works, that the washout rate is lower. Just wondering, Thanks

 

[Chiller]

Your flying experince will most definitely be helpful in the initial programs at UPT. You might be new to the military and equipment you'll be flying, but you've already gotten over the apprehensions about being in and around airplanes. I had taught the AF & Army ROTC flight Indoc programs in college and had about 2800 hours when I went to UPT. I never said a word about it. About the time you start using a Mach meter or get to the formation phase of the program, the playing field levels out with the rest of your classmates.

 

[white E]

Well I guess you got the anwer you were looking for. Get us much time as possible without wasting money. You are going to be 10 times better trained than any civilian counterpart and even better than that if you fly fighters. The more time you have the better. You will be comforable right away with the tweet/T-6 and instruments will not bother you.

There is nothing wrong with confidence...just know when to shut up and color. You will have many ups and downs. How you handle that and how you show leadership in the flight room will payn dividends. You HAVE to drink the blue cool-aid for 1 year and your golden..well till IFF, but that is a different thread.

I had a ton of time starting UPT and I breezed through UPT with respect to my class. We all had the same progression curve. What does that mean? It means you have a lot to learn. There will be times when you are taught something incorrect...shut up and color. play the game and learn..be a sponge. As for the call sign Q and the T-1 Q.....go T-38's and you will get the keys to a great kingdom.

Oh a dude who had 3000 hrs, regionsl jet time, and flew Xtra 300's washed out of IFF in my class. Remember to shut up and color.
-W-