Upgrade at Pinnacle

[CRJ_Driver]

What is the upgrade time looking at Pinnacle for those who meet the upgrade requirements as newhires with CRJ experience?

And as a follow up, what is the RSV system like?

Thanks,

IA driver

 

[redflyer65]

Reserve really sucks, and the upgrade is at the very minimum 3yrs possibly more like 5 because we only get about 20 more planes. Then no upgrades.

 

[acaTerry]

Heard from several pilots I know there that street captains are on again. But that it is a really bad spot to be in...lots of abuse.

 

[dondk]

So far.. there is 1 (one) pseudo Street Captain. In FO new hire class he placed a bid for Captain, the company the next day offered him a Captain spot.

ALL of the vacancies from now until February are filled with senior FO's. I would seriously doubt we go back to a new hire OR the street. We have a no less than a good 100 FO's that have the time. As stated, with the FINAL 20 jet's to come that is about 80 Captains and that is not including the 20-30 upgrades in the system at present. Anything "could" happen though...

 

[acaTerry]

Well I hope it comes in good order and that the 3rd codeshare doesn't happen.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Glad to be employed at this point...

Pinnacle soothsayers,

What variables are there such as chances we'll go beyond 129, upgrade fail rate, percent with mins vs. percent with bids in, and trends on these, that may affect quick UG chances? I am here now beginning sims shortly, everyone says "hold on you'll get it in a few months".

And what about the EMB-170 in the hangar ... what was that all about?

Space

 

[Sir Humpalot]

During my interview process, we were told that they just got financing for 70 pax jets and that their scope does not allow it with nwa. From what the rumor is that Pinch nickel might be looking at other regionals for business. I dont know how true it is or if it is just kool aid.

sc

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Sir Hump A Lot

When was your interview - in the past month-ish? The 170 was in the hangar last week for 48 hours roughly. I have heard from some of the more wizened folks that PCL wants other flying too.

space

 

[T-Gates]

Someone currently at PCL correct me if I am wrong, but when I was there, I was under the distinct impression that PCL was restricted to only fly under NWA code under thier current ASA (Airline Service Agreement).

And just an FYI, the ERJ170 is just making a publicity tour, It is going everywhere. It's been in DTW, MSP, MEM, CVG, ATL, MIA, everywhere. Just because it's in the hangar doesn't mean that they will be showing up anytime soon. And I'm sure Embrarer approved financing on the spot because they need some orders since most of thier customers are on the cusp of failure.

 

[dondk]

ASA and PNCL...

Under the ASA we are NOT allowed to fly for other "color" unless certain conditions are met.
One of them is repaying I believe a 50M loan, of which PNCL has paid a good deal already towards (at the rate they are going maybe another 2 years).
Another is a time factor, after I "think" '07 we can branch out
another is how the equipment is allocated and used
another is the new colors cannot fly into a NWA hub or into a city which has "x" amount of NWA flights a day.

There are many "strings" attached to the ASA that can make it both possible and impossible to fly for another codeshare depending on how you go.

It is well known that the mgmt has found the financing for other a/c, it is also known they have shopped around for another code share.

The problems are no one wants to get into bed with an airline that has unsatisfied labor agreements. PNCL and the pilots start section 6 in a bit more than a month from now. This is one reason why they started early negiotations.

Regarding faliures and upgrades. At one point the bust rate was 50%, then it stabilized at a solid 30%, as of the last 3-4 classes it is down to about 10%. There are still a few who bust the 1st time through, but the 2nd pass is just about 100%.

Regarding going beyond 129.. Some stay firm on 129 and that is it. Others have "seen" documentation stating we will go another 30 or so. There are 70 options that have been converted to orders that NWA currently has. Right now it is anyone's guess... The new TA (NWA) states another 40 50 seat jets for an airlink other than PNCL or XJ. It also states that most of our 44 seat fleet will become a 50 seat airframe (that one I don't quite get personally, as I thought the -440 was a specific "type" so that it could not be converted).

Regarding 70 seat aircraft.. they can ONLY be flown by NWA pilots under NWA colors.. PNCL would never see one in NWA colors, some other codeshare? I don't see why not. I don't think the ASA has a string on that one.

 

[Lear70]

Kinda sorta and maybe not? Welcome to PCL where nothing is certain until it shows up on the ramp and in your bid pack (actually I think that's true pretty much everywhere).

The ASA has a lot of limits on what Pinnacle can do, but the loophole is if Pinnacle goes out, gets another Operating Certificate and calls it "Pinnacle Redux Inc" or something else, and gets financing through that company. If it does that, I believe that they can put pretty much anything on property that we want, question is, will they do that and if so, for whom would we be flying and, would it be OUR pilots? Our MEC seems to think we have enough in out contract to make our company use us for something like that, but with this company's complete disregard for our contract, anything is possible. Chew on that one for awhile.

As far as making a 44-seater into a 50, yes, that is an available option from Bombardier (notice our weights recently increased the 44-seater to match the 50-seater in the limitations section - FCOM 2 Alert Bulletin 04-61). The PSU's are already wired into the overheads behind the luggage bins and the windows are there, the seating tracks still go all the way forward, doesn't seem like it would be an especially difficult mod. They'd probably still call it a CRJ-440 (don't think it's easy to modify the type certificate of an already-built aircraft) but call it the -ER conversion or something goofy like that.

More than 129 aircraft? Management seems to think so and keeps making the Kool-Aid in that flavor so believe what you will, no one really knows, even if they profess to (except maybe Phil, Jon, and Mike).

Upgrade times as a new-hire? Unless we expand our 129 order? Slim to none any time in the near future. Four or five more vacancies for 10-20 Captains each and that should about cover our deliveries and what little attrition we have, not to mention that they started going senior again on this last one.

 

[another cfii]

Boy, I guess our boys in MEM are making kool-aids in all flavors these days... I should've gone down south more and hear more watercoolers talk. Our esteem airline CEO of the year has said we don't expect to get any more RJ from NW besides the 129 on order, so the only card they haven't shown is whether we'll do a "freedumb" redux a la Memphis

On the other hand, rumors in this company flies faster than .74 in any days. Last I heard from JY jumpseating on my plane saying we won't fly west, and now look at where we are! Let's start a rumor now saying we'll fly to Sin city Las Vegas!! Yeah baby!! 8 hours reduced rest of gambling, unlimited coke and rum!!! And heck, we won't even need a hotel room, must save them a lot of money.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

My crystal ball

So I get the feeling that PT and crew have perhaps realized the NW flying is probably nearing it's logical conclusion from a growth standpoint ... and that's just not good enough. Before I came to the interview a few weeks ago, I found an old Professional Pilot magazine in the basement with an article, stating Pinnacle (Express I at the time) could grow outside NW flying in November '04. Well, with all the rumors/facts flying around it would certainly appear more likely true than not.

I don't think they're banking on more NW at all, but on other flying.

So who is it?

 

[dondk]

What other codeshare? Who knows? Codeshares considered.. Delta was one that floated, but proabably because NWA codeshares with them. I don't see anyone REALLY needing another regional right now, but you never know what nonconnah has up thier sleeves...

The only strange things that I see to this mess...

One quote stated we are hiring 750 pilots this year.. well that is 100% growth, which is quite amazing for this airline. I would want to see if the hiring/interviewing continues to next year.. We should hit that magic number of 1300 pilots about January/February.

The school house and SOC are being completely re-done/expanded. This airlines 4th or 5th guiding pricipal is "if it ain't broken, don't fix it, especially if it cost money". We have operated (albeit tightly) within reason so far, adding another 20 jet's for the type of expansion they are doing in nonconnah... Maybe a bit over "overkill" or they have bigger plans.

NWA has orders for 70 more aircraft and options for an addtional 100+
NWA wants 70 seaters now.. the NWA MEC wants furloughee's to fly them, according to the buzz.. there should be NO furloughee's at NWA come begining of '06 or soon after. SOOO.. who is going to fly the 70 seaters then? Maybe NWA MEC and NWA have come to a rate that both can live with, and so can the rest of ALPA's big boys that have 70 seat a/c in thier regional fleets.

NWA is still behind everyone in the regional fleet, even with XJ's 36 Avro's NWA is short on the regional jet end. NWA has about 100 RJ's less than the other legacy carrier's. I just don't see NWA staying behind eveyone else.

 

[DoinTime]

So I get the feeling that PT and crew have perhaps realized the NW flying is probably nearing it's logical conclusion from a growth standpoint ... and that's just not good enough. Before I came to the interview a few weeks ago, I found an old Professional Pilot magazine in the basement with an article, stating Pinnacle (Express I at the time) could grow outside NW flying in November '04. Well, with all the rumors/facts flying around it would certainly appear more likely true than not.

I don't think they're banking on more NW at all, but on other flying.

So who is it?

Pinnacle Airlines cannot fly regional jets outside of the NW code designator under current mainline scope language. There is some dispute on if the successorship clause in mainline's contract includes Pinnacle Holdings as a successor to Pinnacle Airlines though so its debatable if we will some day be let loose from the mainline scope stranglehold.

With the most recent ASA between Pinnacle and NW all timeline restrictions on pursuing flying outside of NW were removed (all except for mainline scope restrictions that is).

C.9.e. All Regional Jets and AVRO-85 aircraft operated by Mesaba Airlines, Express Airlines, and any other air carrier in which the Company or an Affiliate has an ownership interest, must be operated at all times with the NW code designator. If the NW code designator is removed from a Regional Jet operated by Mesaba Airlines, Express Airlines or another air carrier in which the Company or an Affiliate has an ownership interest, or from an AVRO-85 aircraft operated by Mesaba Airlines, that aircraft shall no longer be operated by the carrier.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

Pinnacle Airlines cannot fly regional jets outside of the NW code designator under current mainline scope language. There is some dispute on if the successorship clause in mainline's contract includes Pinnacle Holdings as a successor to Pinnacle Airlines QUOTE]

So we start another airline / certificate if Pinnacle Holdings is ruled not a successor? Also, is there no time limit on this restriction? I read Pinnacle was free in Nov 04.

 

[NRHPilot]

Can you explain getting hired off the street as a Captain with you guys. Why don't the FO's that have been working there take these slots? We have a really long upgrade, and there are pleanty of FO's that will take a Captain spot when it opens. I guess we had an 4 year FO that left recently for you guys that will be a Captain. Is this really happening?

 

[DoinTime]

So we start another airline / certificate if Pinnacle Holdings is ruled not a successor? Also, is there no time limit on this restriction? I read Pinnacle was free in Nov 04.

If Pinnacle Holdings is allowed to buy, or form, a new airline separate of Pinnacle Airlines they can do so whenever they wish. One of the things Pinnacle management gave up during the last ASA negotiations was the 14% guaranteed margin on their expenses (its now 10%), in return they were released from Northwest's restrictions on operating for other carriers (there are still some restrictions but they are not prohibitive).