Until we figure out that we are professionals, we never get the respect/compensation!

[jetfo]

I am so tired of being classified as a blue collar worker working as an airline pilot. I would love to know where this notion originated.
Most of us are college educated professional pilots who have devoted years, if not decades to perfecting our craft. Many of us hold graduate and doctorate degrees, and what we do certainly qualifies for equivalent responsibility.
We have to know more than many individuals who hold graduate or doctorate degrees, an certainly carry more responsibility on any particular flight. Why do we continue to degrade ourselves to this level?

 

[RP170]

I am so tired of being classified as a blue collar worker working as an airline pilot. I would love to know where this notion originated.
Most of us are college educated professional pilots who have devoted years, if not decades to perfecting our craft. Many of us hold graduate and doctorate degrees, and what we do certainly qualifies for equivalent responsibility.
We have to know more than many individuals who hold graduate or doctorate degrees, an certainly carry more responsibility on any particular flight. Why do we continue to degrade ourselves to this level?

Who is saying we are blue collar workers?

 

[RP170]

I am so tired of being classified as a blue collar worker working as an airline pilot. I would love to know where this notion originated.
Most of us are college educated professional pilots who have devoted years, if not decades to perfecting our craft. Many of us hold graduate and doctorate degrees, and what we do certainly qualifies for equivalent responsibility.
We have to know more than many individuals who hold graduate or doctorate degrees, an certainly carry more responsibility on any particular flight. Why do we continue to degrade ourselves to this level?

Who is saying we are blue collar workers? Sorry for the double post.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But we ARE blue collar. Just a simple fact.

We aren't professional in that we can quit our practice, get a loan and start our own business tomorrow, like a Doctor or a lawyer.

But we are professional in that we make personal sacrfices for the good of the public. And we do police ourselves.

Once we determine how we want to percieved why not act the part? Too many of us depend on our titles, environement, compensation and circumstances to define who we are. When the above characteristics become unfavorable, so does our attitude and behavior.

Instead of waiting until we get to work to define who we are why not do it beofre you leave the house...

 

[YourPilotFriend]

But we ARE blue collar. Just a simple fact.

We aren't professional in that we can quit our practice, get a loan and start our own business tomorrow, like a Doctor or a lawyer.

But we are professional in that we make personal sacrfices for the good of the public. And we do police ourselves.

We don't police ourselves enough. Who do you think decides who becomes a doctor; the doctors. If only we can find a way to stop those FO's from coming in at 18K a year.....one can only dream.

 

[pilotyip]

A high school graduate can do the job. The skills of a pilot are universal, in that any professional pilot can be trained in matter of a couple months to do their job. Any one with certain level of desire and skill can become a professional pilot. I know of high school drops outs working for a major. That being said it is still a great profession where else can a high grad be making $100K by the time he is in his mid-30's. If you are in it for prestige or respect you may be disappointed.

 

[Nancy Pryor]

Part 121 minimums

We don't police ourselves enough. Who do you think decides who becomes a doctor; the doctors. If only we can find a way to stop those FO's from coming in at 18K a year.....one can only dream.

I have never understood why Part 135 ops require 1200 total time etc but Part 121 has no comparable minimums. Wouldn't this help to solve the problem? Why not require an ATP for Part 121 ops for both CA and FO? That would enforce a 1500 hour minimum (cf. 1200 hours for Part 135), and an ATP is within the reach of everyone eventually, so it doesn't preclude anyone from getting that shiny jet job if they're willing to earn an ATP to get it.

Of course there are some really good 500 hour pilots and there are some really bad 5000 hour pilots but they are probably near the edge of the bell curve. If total time means nothing why does Part 135 require 1200 hours? If it's meaningful and required for Part 135, why isn't there a total time requirement for Part 121?

Pay and QOL are so low at the regionals because the supply of pilots exceeds demand. If Part 121 operations required an ATP for FO's, the supply would be smaller than it is now (while the 500-1500 hour pilots worked toward their ATP certificates) and pay and QOL would be better for everyone. And, the airlines would be hiring pilots with more experience.

 

[pilotyip]

Nancy, all 121 PIC's must hold an ATP, which means a minimum of 1500 hours and an age of 23. 135 PIC is only 1200 hrs and a Comm, Inst

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Actually, you will find that a good number of starting FO's have near 135 minimums. The fact of the matter is we don't hire PFT's here at mainline. So if you didn't do it right in the first place, you aren't going anywhere anyway. If we can keep the jobs at mainline, in 5 years this will become a career again.

 

[FN FAL]

If Part 121 operations required an ATP for FO's...

why not require a dowry instead.

This is why this industry is so screwed up. People paying for unecessary certificates is the same as pay for training.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We don't police ourselves enough. Who do you think decides who becomes a doctor; the doctors. If only we can find a way to stop those FO's from coming in at 18K a year.....one can only dream.

Every profession has its issues. Doctors are dropping out because of malpractice insurance....

FO's at 18K is not your problem. If not 18K then 20? What bottom line would you fight for?

 

[Ralgha]

I am so tired of being classified as a blue collar worker working as an airline pilot.

You are a blue collar worker. You earn a wage, not a salary, therefore you are blue collar. Realize this fact and get over it.

I would love to know where this notion originated.

Probably from people who actually know what the term means.

Most of us are college educated professional pilots who have devoted years, if not decades to perfecting our craft. Many of us hold graduate and doctorate degrees, and what we do certainly qualifies for equivalent responsibility.

Depends on the degree. In any case, the degree is not required for the job. It helps to be sure, but it's not a requirement.

We have to know more than many individuals who hold graduate or doctorate degrees,

Not really.

an certainly carry more responsibility on any particular flight.

Again, it depends on which individuals your are comparing it to.

Why do we continue to degrade ourselves to this level?

Because you continue to delude yourself into thinking this job is something it's not. It is not hard. The education is not difficult. Yes, it should be well paid, but not for those reasons.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

why not require a dowry instead.

This is why this industry is so screwed up. People paying for unecessary certificates is the same as pay for training.

FN FAL,

This coming from you?

This industry is so screw up cause no one is making money. It's like saying during the Katrina aftermath.... " Man, N.O. used to be a great town until these flood waters....."

 

[flyer172r]

The 1200 hour 135 requirement is for PIC only, there is no SIC time requirement for 135, just like there's none for 121. If the powers that be were to implement a time requirement for 121, the hiring pool would dry up for about 6 months while all the potential new hires instructed for another 500 hours. I doubt anything would change much in that time.

I think part of the reason some see us as blue collar is because we're union. I'm not saying we shouldn't be union, but in general union workers aren't seen as white collar.

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL,

This coming from you?

This industry is so screw up cause no one is making money. It's like saying during the Katrina aftermath.... " Man, N.O. used to be a great town until these flood waters....."

Then go buy two or three ratings that aren't required, if you feel that strongly about it.

 

[Rabble]

I'm sorry to dissapoint you but you're a blue-collar worker.

Sure, you wear a uniform which might lead you to believe you're white-collar, but you're not.

You have learned a skill -- much like an auto-worker on an assemblyline. You have joined a trade-union -- much like that same auto-worker. You earn an hourly wage.

You produce a product (a revenue seat mile). You sit in your chair and push your button and produce your RSM for your company. A monkey could be trained to do it (especially today with cockpit automation what it is.)

The sooner you realize that you're an hourly worker, punching the time clock, the better off you will be.

Now: That being said. You will never get pilots to seek that moral high-ground and stay clear of the airlines until they have >1500 hrs. If Comair had unpaid F/O internships, people would line up at the door. That's just a result of the sad fact that many young pilots had their way paid by daddy and don't understand the value of a dollar.

You will also never get those same pilots to take the moral high-ground and avoid the larger airplanes. Like it or not, SJS is real.

This is a dynamic that has been changing in the industry for decades. Airline pilot is one of the only professions where compensation has not kept up with inflation. In fact it has gone way DOWN with respect to inflation!! Do not expect this trend to reverse itself.

Who IS a white collar worker in the cockpit? The salaried corporate pilot who flies 200-400 hours per year, spends most nights at home, and is able to negotiate benefits, incentives, and retirement packages.

I see where you were trying to go with this thread, but you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. The airline pilot profession is a dead-end.

Let's reflect on why: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=59400

 

[BoeingBaller]

I am so tired of being classified as a blue collar worker working as an airline pilot. I would love to know where this notion originated.
Most of us are college educated professional pilots who have devoted years, if not decades to perfecting our craft. Many of us hold graduate and doctorate degrees, and what we do certainly qualifies for equivalent responsibility.
We have to know more than many individuals who hold graduate or doctorate degrees, an certainly carry more responsibility on any particular flight. Why do we continue to degrade ourselves to this level?

How about heavy equipment operator is that better?

 

[DirkkDiggler]

By definition, pilots are professionals. You know what it is that makes us look blue collar? The fact that we are one of the few, if not the only "white collar" jobs that has union representation. That's where our blue collar feel comes from! And no, you are not blue collar simply because you get paid by the hour. What hat did you pull that from?

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/professional

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

We are unique

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Then go buy two or three ratings that aren't required, if you feel that strongly about it.

It is all supply and demand.... not sure if the pilots themsleves want to control the supply, because that is waht is suggested by creating minimums...

No doubt the "cool" guy that cries SJS over 500 hour FO's working for whore wages would piss off a widebody pilot because of the rate "cool" would fly a widebody for.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It is all supply and demand.... not sure if the pilots themsleves want to control the supply, because that is waht is suggested by creating minimums...

No doubt the "cool" guy that cries SJS over 500 hour FO's working for whore wages would piss off a widebody pilot because of the rate "cool" would fly a widebody for.

Exactly, a regional jet pilot that steps up to new equipment that has more seats in it for his company, at less pay than mainline, is even worse than a 17K a year FO. The regional pilot shold know better and is also contributing to his failure as a pilot. The fact of the matter is that $170,000 a year as a 747 captain is a piss poor rate. If you think otherwise you are contributing to the slide.

 

[BeCareful!]

blue-col·lar (bl

k

l

r)
adj.
Of or relating to wage earners, especially as a class, whose jobs are performed in work clothes and often involve manual labor.



That's from dictionary.com

I thought I would find something more definitive that labeled management as "white-collar" and wage earners as "blue-collar" but to no avail. In any case, in my experience it depends on the airline. Some airlines I've worked for treated me as a "manager" of sorts; I was told that the cockpit crew "managed" the airline's most expensive piece of capitol investment----the airplane. Certainly, as a captain you are "treated" like a manger of sorts.

But I think what we are really talking about here is PAY.

Our pay sucks because the airlines have expert negotiators, people who's lives are devoted to lowering labor costs. ALPA has a loosely focused bunch of self-motivated reps who, while looking out for their own interests first, charge their negotiating committees with going after whatever will serve them. It's mostly geared to help the senior pilot, because that's who controls the union in most cases.

At this point, every airline knows exactly how to "play" us, and we, as a group, are falling for their $hit time after time after time after time........

Whatever our job "classification," be it Blue or White-Collar, we really are a bunch of out of control fools when it comes to dealing with the important task of saving this "profession."

Good luck to all

 

[skiddriver]

By definition, pilots are professionals. You know what it is that makes us look blue collar? The fact that we are one of the few, if not the only "white collar" jobs that has union representation. That's where our blue collar feel comes from! And no, you are not blue collar simply because you get paid by the hour. What hat did you pull that from?

Depends on the definition you use. If you fly for pay, you're a "professional" [adj] pilot instead of an "amateur" pilot.

To be a professional [noun], you have to belong to a profession. Once upon a time, being a carpenter was a profession, as was being a plumber, or other guild controlled jobs. So it isn't a question of being a "blue collar" or "white collar job". And it isn't a question of whether you’re competent and do your job well. The trade of being a pilot does not qualify as a profession. Neither does my current job in management by the way.

There is a good discussion on what constitutes a profession at this link http://www.schwartzman.org.br/simon/academ.htm in section 1 titled “What is a Profession?”

Two more points. First, for a long time many "professions" were considered "working class" and were looked down upon by upper class society. It wasn't until people started linking a university education and white collar work with being a "professional" that being classed as one was considered a compliment. Currently, lawyers are considered members of a profession, and see how much respect it gains them.

Secondly, for the youngster who is surely going to post "I am a professional, I am a professional", I have only one response. I don't care what you call yourself as long as you behave "professionally". And in the context of being a "professional" that means sacrificing yourself to your job and the public good. If you delay your passengers because you're angry with your company, you're not being a professional. If you engage in questionable behavior in flight for your own amusement, you're not being a professional. If you don't treat your coworkers (and that means everyone from the rampies to the CEO) with courtesy and consideration, then you're not being a professional. And finally, if you degrade the image of your profession in public through sloppy dress, inappropriate speech, poor grooming, bad behavior, or using the name of a fictitious porn star as your internet user name, you are absolutely not a professional. So shine the shoes, lose the backpack, get a haircut, wear your uniform properly, and stop trying to pick up my 14 year old daughter in the C concourse. Then at least you can call yourself a professional without wrinkling your karma.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

You produce a product (a revenue seat mile). You sit in your chair and push your button and produce your RSM for your company. A monkey could be trained to do it (especially today with cockpit automation what it is.)

I doubt it. I just fixed my furnace this morning by replacing a flame sensor and by re-connecting a ground wire that had come undone. Now, if an A/P mechanic accidentally forgets to connect a ground wire in your airplane and computers start to fail, will the monkey be able to think his way out of the predicament? I've also had all five EFIS tubes in the Saab go black and was left with nothing but a couple of Com radios. What would the monkey do without his Nintendo screens to look at? I know some wisearse is gonna say "look at the Peanut gauges!", so I'll say it first. But I think I made my point. Nice insult, dork.

MM

 

[FN FAL]

http://www.msu.edu/user/schurerj/pntang.wav

 

[PBRstreetgang]

blue-collar

One entry found for blue-collar.
Main Entry: blue-col·lar
Pronunciation: 'blü-'kä-l&r
Function: adjective
: of, relating to, or constituting the class of wage earners whose duties call for the wearing of work clothes or protective clothing -- compare WHITE-COLLAR

 

[Nancy Pryor]

That's just a result of the sad fact that many young pilots had their way paid by daddy and don't understand the value of a dollar.

We have a winner. Many of these same young pilots who have their way paid by daddy don't have much sense of personal responsibility, but instead have a well developed sense of entitlement because they're used to having things of great value handed to them for free instead of working hard to earn them. Things that are not earned are usually valued less. Spoiled children and bad parenting - it's not a new concept, but it's sad that it's become so prevalent in the airline cockpits of the regional jets our parents and families increasingly fly around in.

"Hey, four-one-oh it dude!" - this attitude belongs on a skateboard at the mall, not in the cockpit of a regional jet, passengers aboard or not. As long as the airlines continue to hire immature children to fly the public around in jets the airlines will continue to treat their pilot groups as unequals. If you want to be treated like an adult, grow up and behave like one. It's not just the immature pilots who pay the price for this, it's the majority of the pilots in the regional airline pilot groups who actually are adult professionals and act like it.

Regional airlines would be able to pay their pilots more if they charged more for a ticket. Some would argue that some profitable regionals could afford to pay pilots more anyway. If all the regionals charged a few bucks more for a ticket, Joe Greyhound would still pay it. Take a 3 hour flight: add $10 per hour for two pilots and one FA (just an example), that's an extra $30 per hour. Add some overhead for HR benefits and taxes and it's maybe $40 per hour. A 50 seat RJ with 80% load has 40 pax aboard. If each of the 40 pax pays an extra $3 for their ticket, that's an extra $120 revenue for the flight. That covers the extra $40 per hour we need to pay our crew an extra $10 per hour each for this 3 hour flight. For $3 per pax ticket. Three whole dollars. Three whole dollars per pax that translates into a 50% per hour raise for a $19 per hour first year FO (26% raise for a $38 per hour CA). If Joe Greyhound can afford $49 he can afford $52.

As others have mentioned on this forum, the standards of maturity, professionalism, pay and QOL will not rise until the barriers to entry are raised to realistic levels and the buy-a-job schools are put on a short leash.

 

[pilotyip]

A high school drop out can make a living flying an airplane and have a skill level equal to anyone out there driving airplanes, in fact I know one at a major. Doctors can not. Doctor's are trained in unique specialties; they have an elimination process with many obstacles to overcome to get to their profession operating level. When you need a heart transplant, or have cancer, you make sure you have best available in that field and you pay whatever he wants. Pilots on the other hand are a commodity, a company or an airline needs a COM/INST/MEL rated pilot, there are 1,000's to chose from, and the job goes to the lowest bidder. Skill above a minimum level means little to the employer. In fact the skill level above the minimum has little to do with the hiring process, personality, work ethic, etc, play more into the pilot hiring process than hours and ratings. Anyone with a certain level of skill and some desire can become a pilot. Doctors become pilots all the time, and any doctor with the desire can become a pilot. (I know, I know they kill themselves in airplanes, but that is more a personality fault, than a skill short fall) The reverse is not true very few professional pilots have the skill to become doctors. I love flying, do it as much as I can, and I enjoy flying anything with wings, and that is reason I came back to aviation. But I think sometimes pilots have a misplaced why they fly, if you are in it because you like flying, you will not be disappointed. If you are in for the money, you may be disappointed. If you want money become a doctor

 

[jetfo]

I have never understood why Part 135 ops require 1200 total time etc but Part 121 has no comparable minimums. Wouldn't this help to solve the problem? Why not require an ATP for Part 121 ops for both CA and FO? That would enforce a 1500 hour minimum (cf. 1200 hours for Part 135), and an ATP is within the reach of everyone eventually, so it doesn't preclude anyone from getting that shiny jet job if they're willing to earn an ATP to get it.

Of course there are some really good 500 hour pilots and there are some really bad 5000 hour pilots but they are probably near the edge of the bell curve. If total time means nothing why does Part 135 require 1200 hours? If it's meaningful and required for Part 135, why isn't there a total time requirement for Part 121?

Pay and QOL are so low at the regionals because the supply of pilots exceeds demand. If Part 121 operations required an ATP for FO's, the supply would be smaller than it is now (while the 500-1500 hour pilots worked toward their ATP certificates) and pay and QOL would be better for everyone. And, the airlines would be hiring pilots with more experience.

I would certainly agree with that idea. It is rediculous to have 250 to 500 hour FOs flying RJs. The Captains more often than not are flying solo or babysitting the FOs.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Our pay sucks because the airlines have expert negotiators, people who's lives are devoted to lowering labor costs. ALPA has a loosely focused bunch of self-motivated reps who, while looking out for their own interests first, charge their negotiating committees with going after whatever will serve them. It's mostly geared to help the senior pilot, because that's who controls the union in most cases.

At this point, every airline knows exactly how to "play" us, and we, as a group, are falling for their $hit time after time after time after time........

Our pay sucks because the industry suxs! It is hard to negotiate pay when there is no money....

This is like New Orleans residents complaining about poor living conditions when 6ft of water is goinh thru their house!

It is what it is!!