Type rating Question

[great cornholio]

Heres the deal Im an ATP and already have a type rating in a BA 4100 with no limits. My company is getting ready to get rid of circling appraoches in our ops specs...in theory this should be done by the time I end up going thru upgrade on the EMB 145. With that said when I get my EMB type I am told that there will be a restriction on it that says "No circling appraoches" or something like that. Anyways someone said that if I get that No circle limit on my type that it will take over for my whole ATP and that I will not be legal to circle in anything even a 172. I think thats crap and think its wrong. The type would be limited not the ATP. If the type limit applied to the whole certificate then wouldnt that mean that everyone that was "SIC only " types would only be able to be SIC in anything including 172s and what not. Well as you can tell Im bored in the crashpad and well you know Bored + Flea infested Craspad + Internet = random flightinfo question.

 

[Flyerjosh]

Incorrect. Your ATP certificate will look like this:

XII RATINGS

Airline Transport Pilot
Airplane Multiengine Land
BA4100
EMB145
Commercial Privileges
Airplane Singleengine Land

XIII LIMITATIONS

EMB145 CIRC. APCH. - VMC ONLY

 

[Flyerjosh]

Here's another example of various limitations from an actual certificate (co-worker):

AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT
-Airplane Single Engine Land
-Airplane Multi Engine Land
-Airplane Single Engine Sea

A-320 BA-3100 BA-4100 CE-500 CL-65 EMB-110

LIMITATIONS
A-320 CIRC. APCH. - VMC ONLY
EMB-110 SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED

 

[great cornholio]

Thanks Josh. I was pretty sure that it would look something like that. Anyways one of the ground instructors at work was saying that that limit would apply to the whole certificate, which I thought was wrong.

 

[JAFI]

Your ground instructor is mistaken. You obtained an ATP and a type rating with a circling approach. That you will not lose. If you take another type rating exam with out demonstrating a circleing approach only that type rating will be with a no circle limitation. This is common in the industry today.

If you did not have an ATP but obtained an ATP with a type rating where you did not demonstrate a circling approach then and only then would your ATP and type rating contain the no circle limitation.

JAFI

The limitation can be removed by demonstrating a circling approach to a DE or Inspector in the aircraft. I do not know of any approved simulator course that will remove the no circleing approach limitation. But I have been wrong in the past........

 

[great cornholio]

Your ground instructor is mistaken. You obtained an ATP and a type rating with a circling approach. That you will not lose. If you take another type rating exam with out demonstrating a circleing approach only that type rating will be with a no circle limitation. This is common in the industry today.

If you did not have an ATP but obtained an ATP with a type rating where you did not demonstrate a circling approach then and only then would your ATP and type rating contain the no circle limitation.

JAFI

The limitation can be removed by demonstrating a circling approach to a DE or Inspector in the aircraft. I do not know of any approved simulator course that will remove the no circleing approach limitation. But I have been wrong in the past........

Good point with the getting the no circle type at the same time as your ATP. I guess in that case you could still circle stuff like a 172 cause of the commercial privs for the single engine stuff on the certificate would still be unlimited. The only reason I would need the limit removed from the type would be if a company required that I get it removed and in that case the company should pay for the sim training since its a requirment of the job.

 

[Flyerjosh]

The limitation can be removed by demonstrating a circling approach to a DE or Inspector in the aircraft. I do not know of any approved simulator course that will remove the no circleing approach limitation. But I have been wrong in the past........

You can demonstrate the circle in the sim as well (say at recurrent), but it has to be with a person that is certified to conduct type/check rides and sign off on a new 8710.

 

[JAFI]

Flyerjosh, There are many FSDO's in 8 FAA regions and many training centers each with their own way doing business. I do not know of any simulator centers that have the authority to remove a "Circle to Land" limitation through an approved course. But then again, I have not read every centers program or am privy to each FSDO's local rules. I will attach what I have found in a few minutes search. I will ask when I get back to the office.

FAA-S-8081-5D (ATP PTS)

Page 3.

Airline transport pilot and aircraft type rating certificates issued without training and checking in the circling maneuver will be annotated “CIRC. APCH. VMC ONLY.” This restriction may be removed when the circling approach is satisfactorily demonstrated to a designated examiner (also a check airman), or FAA inspector, in the appropriate type airplane.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
( my comments: Note it does not say Simulator….)

The next reference for a 142 school is if you use a simulator in stead of an aircraft for checking.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

142.59 Flight simulators and flight training devices.

(a) An applicant for, or holder of, a training center certificate must show that each flight simulator and flight training device used for training, testing, and checking (except AQP) will be or is specifically qualified and approved by the Administrator for—

(1) Each maneuver and procedure for the make, model, and series of aircraft, set of aircraft, or aircraft type simulated, as applicable; and

(2) Each curriculum or training course in which the flight simulator or flight training device is used, if that curriculum or course is used to satisfy any requirement of 14 CFR chapter I.



Somewhere there must be an approved course to allow a center to remove a “Circle to land” limitation. Again, I have not seen one. If you have one or know of one I would like to see it.

JAFI

 

[Flyerjosh]

JAFI,

Back when I did my initial training in the CRJ at Atlantic Coast Airlines, it was optional to do the circle to land on the initial checkride. Most people did it so as not to have the limitation on their certificate. However for those that didn't, they could have it removed during their 6 mo. recurrent event as long as the sim instructor was qualified to conduct checkride events. Don't know about straight 142 programs or training outside of the airline world.

When I did my type ride in the CE500 and the CRJ (part 142), I did the circle to land on the checkride (level D sim), and don't have the limitation on either. My guess is that training centers have a list of approved/certified checkride events that can be completed in their respective sims. As long as the item is on that list, one should be able to remove the limit. It wouldn't make sense to me to be able to do the circle to land during initial training and have it certified then, but not later... but then again what with the FAA ever makes sense?

 

[great cornholio]

I know that when in the sim (with the airlines) you have to do certain circles that are approved by the FAA. So you cant just go to any airport and make up a circle. For the 1900 and the J41 we circled at JFK. In the EMB we have to circle at either MEM or IND. Im not totally sure, but I belive that these circles are approved by each airlines POI so Im sure that there are all kinds of different things at each airline.