Two part question....Logbook & SIC

[LoneStar123]

Has anyone gone back and logged the "dual" they received during training as "PIC" considering they were already rated in the aircraft??

The reason I ask.....I have a ton of SIC and not much PIC and Im wondering if this might hurt my efforts to obtain an interview. Or is it all about Total and multi time? Should I go back and log that "dual" as "PIC"? Currently a first officer on a Corporate SA227 Merlin

 

[cwebster2]

Has anyone gone back and logged the "dual" they received during training as "PIC" considering they were already rated in the aircraft??

The reason I ask.....I have a ton of SIC and not much PIC and Im wondering if this might hurt my efforts to obtain an interview. Or is it all about Total and multi time? Should I go back and log that "dual" as "PIC"? Currently a first officer on a Corporate SA227 Merlin

i didnt go back because i initially logged it as dual and PIC. If you are rated for the airpane (category and class) log it as PIC.

 

[CFIse]

Most companies will ask for your PIC time in terms of when you were ACTING as PIC not if you were logging the time. So on most applications it's not going to matter.

But you're entitled to the time, why not go back and correct it?

 

[rsspilot]

Has anyone gone back and logged the "dual" they received during training as "PIC" considering they were already rated in the aircraft??

The reason I ask.....I have a ton of SIC and not much PIC and Im wondering if this might hurt my efforts to obtain an interview. Or is it all about Total and multi time? Should I go back and log that "dual" as "PIC"? Currently a first officer on a Corporate SA227 Merlin

Not sure if you can log it as pic unless you are truly the Pilot in Command...example....am typed in the crj700 and during IOE in the left seat I was not allowed to log it as Pic because I hadnt had my line check yet...the check airman was the pic even though i was typed and rated in the a/c

 

[CFIse]

Not sure if you can log it as pic unless you are truly the Pilot in Command...example....am typed in the crj700 and during IOE in the left seat I was not allowed to log it as Pic because I hadnt had my line check yet...the check airman was the pic even though i was typed and rated in the a/c

You certainly were allowed to log those legs you were the sole manipulator of the controls as PIC because you were, as you seem to understand, typed and rated in the aircraft.

If you're doing captain upgrade training for a CRJ700 then there seems little point to logging it as PIC since most future employers won't give a rats rear end about it - but the FAA determines what you can log, and the FAA says you can log it.

Anyway - I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that the original poster was talking about their training for commercial, instrument etc.

 

[LoneStar123]

You are right, I was talking about the earlier training (commercial, instru) Thanks for the input.....Everyone

I just dont want my low pic time and high sic time prevent me from getting a regional interview. I got a corporate job relatively early on and didnt spend much time as a CFI. Any thoughts on pic vs. sic ???? - in regards to getting interviews?

 

[The_Russian]

If you have a good amount of turbine time you should be perfect for a regional interview. Where are you flying at and what type of flying is it? How much SIC time do you have and who are you applying for?

 

[LoneStar123]

Flying a SA227 Merlin part 91 right now. Going on 430hr turbine multi...ALL SIC!! 850TT and have resumes everywhere. Looking at Colgan a little closer now. I worked for them as a ramp agent a while ago.

 

[The_Russian]

You should be good almost anywhere. Most companies will waive the 1000 TT requirement if you have a good amount of turbine time. The turboprop regionals are the easiest to get on with time wise. If you want the PIC time soon, then those are the places to go. If you can stand to sit FO for 3-8 years go to a jet regional. You are going to make crap money anywhere you go. If you have a goal of going to the Majors, then money shouldn't be your concern anyway. At least right now!

 

[LoneStar123]

You have a good point. Been wrestling with T-prop vs. Jet question for a while. To be honest, the most common answer I get from my friends at the majors is, "Just get your turbine PIC"!!!!!!!!!! In addition, they all seem to agree that it typically boils down to who you know, regardless of what you got your turbine time in.

 

[Hypoxik]

Except there is no such thing as SIC part 91 is there. A Merlin is a single pilot A/c. Therefore all the SIC time in it part 91 will not count. Ask the guys who log right seat time in there friends king airs. Eagle send guys home a lot for this.

Now if it is 135 and the op specs have SIC in them, then it is ok to log. Just helping..not raining on the parade.

 

[The_Russian]

Yeah, I just realized it when I read your post! The Merlin is single pilot. Shoulda, coulda, woulda logged it as PIC!

 

[The_Russian]

Either way it is experience. However it may be looked down upon because it is not structured (135,121) flight time and two pilots were not required. If I was interviewing you I would take it as a positive thing, some wouldn't. Eagle is also pretty anal about their interview process. Talk to your FSDO and see what they say about it. Or just change it all to read PIC and make sure you know what you are talking about. Also have someone at your company back you up with a nice letter of rec.

 

[LoneStar123]

I questioned it when I first came on board. Its an insurance requirement that has been ok'ed by the faa under 91 (as far as logigng SIC). As far as airline? Dont know. The guy before me got on with Eagle. If that means something

 

[LoneStar123]

This is a 16,000lb airplane so no PIC with no TYPE. Damn! This airplane cannot carry pax without me in that right seat. Thats a required crew member in my book and the faa's. I just cant see why the airlines would not. My Capt. would gladly back me up when that time comes....so that helps

 

[Hypoxik]

Insurence is separate though, has nothing to do with FAA. Therefore no such thing is SIC part 91 in a single pilot aircraft.

Then if you change your time to PIC... you have the whole type problem.

Hope it works out, but most regionals question part 135 SIC time in a single pilot aircraft, think what they will say for part 91.

 

[LoneStar123]

Part 61.55 has a couple ways to make part 91 work. Thanks for the heads up

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Except there is no such thing as SIC part 91 is there. A Merlin is a single pilot A/c. Therefore all the SIC time in it part 91 will not count. Ask the guys who log right seat time in there friends king airs. Eagle send guys home a lot for this.

Now if it is 135 and the op specs have SIC in them, then it is ok to log. Just helping..not raining on the parade.

Some people (pretty much anyone who got the type at an airline) have a Second in Command Required limitation with the type. Same for the Beech 1900 and Emb-110 and the Citation 501 and 551. (maybe planes too) If the Captain has this limitation, then you are required, period end of argument.

 

[OldManPilot]

ALL 121 carriers will define PIC as the person who signed for the aircraft.
It is also possible to be typed in an aircraft and sit right seat to fill in for a missing F/O and it would NOT be considered PIC for that flight, nor can you log it in your logbook as PIC for the legs that you are sole-manipulator. This would still be considered SIC.

As far as training goes. Until you get your type rating in a turbojet aircraft, you cannot log it as PIC. (In many cases this falls into the fact that your first type ride and your ATP are the same ride and since you cannot act as PIC in a turbojet aircraft without an ATP it would then make you unable to log it as PIC)

For Turboprop aircraft NOT requiring an ATP to be PIC, you can log training time in the SIM as PIC as long as you are sole manipulator.

 

[CFIse]

ALL 121 carriers will define PIC as the person who signed for the aircraft.

That's right.

It is also possible to be typed in an aircraft and sit right seat to fill in for a missing F/O and it would NOT be considered PIC for that flight, nor can you log it in your logbook as PIC for the legs that you are sole-manipulator. This would still be considered SIC.

If by "considered" you mean acting, then that's right. ACTING as PIC is not the same as logging it. If you are rated and have the type if needed and are the sole manipulator of the controls then you can certianly LOG it as PIC. The fact that most people don't is because it's not very useful (see the first sentence).

As far as training goes. Until you get your type rating in a turbojet aircraft, you cannot log it as PIC. (In many cases this falls into the fact that your first type ride and your ATP are the same ride and since you cannot act as PIC in a turbojet aircraft without an ATP it would then make you unable to log it as PIC)
For Turboprop aircraft NOT requiring an ATP to be PIC, you can log training time in the SIM as PIC as long as you are sole manipulator.

The fact that you cannot ACT as PIC is rarely related to if you can LOG it as PIC. Now if the plane needs a type rating then you need a type rating to log it as PIC - but you don't need to be acting as PIC to log it as PIC.

We'll leave aside the sim. comment because that's just so wrong it's not even worth discussing.

You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree to it, you don't have to do it that way in YOUR logbook, but you do need to accept that those are the FAA's rules on logging.