Trimming the Rudder during a V1 Cut

[FD109]

I just got off the phone with a friend who got a DC-9 type rating this afternoon. Everything went well for him except a confrontation between the company check airman and a fed who was observing the type ride.

The confrontation involved when during the V1 cut maneuver/profile it is acceptable to trim the rudder.

In this case, my friend had been taught to trim the rudder as soon as the engine failure was detected, but the fed thought the rudder should not be trimmed until after the flaps and slats had been retracted. Incidentally, there is nothing in the company's manuals that addresses the issue, so it is "pilot preference."

I know what I've taught people for years, but I'm curious what others and other training programs do. I'd sure like to get information from a bunch of you regarding what your companies teach, what your training manuals say, and what your preferences are concerning this. Please include aircraft types with your info.

Thanks in advance, FD109

 

[jetdriven]

how we do it at air midwest

at air midwest we get the type and PIC rides in the levl D Beech 1900D sim. There's no company policy but the instructors encourage trimming rudder and alieron as soon as the gear's up. Flaps come up at 400 feet. We also have rudder boost. I havent flown any other transport category A/C so this might not be different than others.
Just be sure you have the aileron and rudder trim centered up before attempting an airstart, it will swerve pretty good!
BOL

 

[chperplt]

Again, just a Beech 1900 here, but I trim it up as soon as the gear come up..

Just be sure you have the aileron and rudder trim centered up before attempting an airstart, it will swerve pretty good!

If the PL is at the flight idle position (where it should be during an air start) , the aircraft shouldn't yaw much at all... just remove the trim before bringing up the power on that engine.

 

[UPS Capt]

I've taught the B75/76 and A300. While my company doesn't have a hard procedure on when it's acceptable to trim the rudder, I can tell you what I've taught and witnessed.

Trimming right at the engine failure point is probably not a good idea. There's to much distraction and the possibility of trimming in the wrong direction (yes, I've seen that happen) at a critical time. If you're going to trim, I'd say wait until the gear is retracted.

The folks that I've witnessed who do the best job with directional control on initial climb out after an engine failure are the ones who don't fiddle with the trim initially. They concentrate on just flying the aircraft in regards to flying proper pitch and directional control. They lock in a specific amount of rudder and hold it until clean up altitude.

I noticed with some students that if they introduced rudder trim initially, especially with all the adrenaline rush of the moment, that they have a tendency to maintain the same amount of pressure on the rudder pedal while triming. This quickly gets them in a "out of trim" condition as more and more rudder deflection is used. This usually gets them into a situation where they are fighting their own rudder application and more confusion.

My advice: Hold off on the rudder trim until at least gear retraction or clean up altitude. However, everyone is different and what works for one may not work for another.

 

[LA Confidential]

As far as the V1 cut we are expected to maintain directional control, establish pos. rate and get the gear up then climb out at V2 to 1,500ft. At level off call flaps 10, call for the engine failure/shutdown in-flight check, once positive crew ID is made then feed in the trim.

But having never suffered an actual V1 or V2 fail, I cannot see why, on the line you would delay in feeding in the trim if you know which side is the dead side. That shouldn’t be a problem, on the ground the rudder is the primary directional control especially when airspeed is at or below VMCa, but once you get the bird airborne then it requires both rudder and ailerons.

So you should know which side needs trimming. Roll wings level, feed in the rudder on the down side of the yoke then trim it up.

I say feed in the trim once positive ID has been made.

LA

 

[bobbysamd]

V-1 cuts

I remember V1 cuts from my Citation type training. I remember that continuing instead of stopping went completely against the grain of my light twin background. Therefore, it makes more sense to me to maintain aircraft control, hold rudder, get the airplane off the ground and stablized on climbout before trimming the rudder.


For what it's worth, that's my .02.

 

[enigma]

MD80, DC9

My MD80 FCOM, doesn't specify an exact time to trim in the engine fire/failure, takeoff continued profile.

Here is the procedure, ( some paraphrasing of non important steps)


1. (paraphrased) engine fails at or above V1

2. (paraphrased) rotate to 13 degrees nose up

3. (paraphrased) positive rate gear up

4. (exact wording) PF maintains airspeed between V2 and V2+10. Airspeed indicator is primary speed reference. Rudder is the primary means of heading control and keeping wings level attitude. Minimize aileron inputs. While still on the ground with nose wheel steering, directional control on one engine can be maintained with 1/3 to 1/2 rudder throw. After rotation, additional rudder inputs will be required for directional control. Keep the ball centered with constant rudder, wings level with little or no aileron and constant pitch attitude.

5. (paraphrased) level off at acceleration altitude. usually 800ft AGL.

6. (paraphrased) flaps up at flap retract speed.

7. (paraphrased) slats retract at slat retract speed.

8. (exact wording) PF accelerates airplane to slat retract speed + 20 knots and calls for " IAS HOLD, AIR CONDITIONING SHUTOFF OVERRIDE, MCT". PNF pushes IAS hold button, selects OVRD on AIR COND SHUTOFF, and pushes MCT button on the TRC. PNF ensures power reduces to MCT or, if autothrottle not engaged, manually sets MCT. After airplane is trimmed, PF may call for autopilot on. When airplane is cleaned up, PF commands applicable memory items and calls for checklists.


I fly the MadDog the same way I flew Lears. I use the rudder until I am in total control of the situation. I don't trim until after I've cleaned up. I was never really trained by my current airline to accomplish the procedure with any specific emphasis on rudder trim. I guess I must have done the first one correctly.

Needless to say, I think that waiting until clean is the proper procedure.


regards,
8N

 

[flywithruss]

Got the books out ...

Well, it has been a while, but it was good to get in to the DC-9 books again ... good thread, y'all!

I was a Continental intern four years ago, and went through DC-9 training. Pulled the books out, and the only mention of rudder trim is (direct quote here):

"Rudder trim should be used as required but do not allow trimming the aircraft to distract from maintaining proper aircraft control, especially during the first 200 feet of climb."

The procedure in my books, as I was taught, is pretty much as described above. I recall following the "first fly the plane" rule in the box ... get things under control ... get to a safe altitude and clean things up, then worry about trimming and autopilot.

However, in the absence of a specific procedure to the contrary in the a/c manual or co. procedures, it is a matter of pilot preference and should not be a pass/fail item, in my opinion.

Fly safe, y'all ...

R

 

[Freight Dog]

Throughout my DHC-8 training, I was told that trim was my friend. During V1 cuts, it definitely is. It's common sense to get the plane under control and trim it out as soon as you do, and that especially applies to rudder trim, as well as putting a little aileron trim and definitely elevator trim.

I've never flown a jet, but in a DHC-8, when you are flying on one engine, you are ALWAYS re-trimming whenever you change the power-setting.

I can't see why the fed would make a fuss about it unless the applicant flunked something, unless the fed was on a power trip.

 

[avbug]

I don't mess with the rudder trim during an engine-out until everything else is handled. Certianly not on the ground, or the initial climb-out. Once everything else is handled and cleaned up, then I'll trim.

Generally trim is more relief than actual help with the problem, and it can serve to mask it, too. It can be a real distraction, and for most of the equipment I've flown, it's more luxury than necessity. This includes unboosted equipment, even in large airplanes with only cable controls and heavy rudder...fly the airplane, then trim after all the important items are handled.

 

[enigma]

Re: Different in turboprops?

I was told by a SF-340 systems instructor that "without using trim on a V1 cut with the critical engine failed, you are going to go right off the runway. You have to be quick with it. Don't hesitate."

I have stored that advice for if I get a chance at flying the Saab... in a turboprop, is the procedure different than a jet (windmilling propeller)? Especially with a critical engine as the SF-340 has?

I'd go with what an Instructor PILOT said, the systems instructors sometimes are not actually checked out pilots.

Yea the procedure is different. Props are much harder to handle in an engine out situation. The easiest airplane to handle in my experience was the Lear 55. The speed margin between V1 and Vr was so large (8 or more knots and a corresponding amount of seconds) that a V1 cut was simple. You just use rudder to keep the airplane straight on the runway and when you rotate, the proper rudder input is already there. IOW, you only have to control one axis at at time. On the other hand, in a Jetstream 31 (the worlds crappiest excuse for an airplane) and some other props,, the cut comes AT rotation, so you have to change all three axis's at once, a much harder situation.

In general, jets do present the need for more skill/discipline/knowledge/planning than do props, but not in the area of V1 cuts.

regards,
8N

 

[tdvalve]

Different in turboprops?

I've got some time in SF-340's as a training captain in the airplane before the simulators came on line. As in all other airplanes, rudder trim in the Saab is used to relieve a tired leg, not to control the airplane. I've never experienced a need to immediately apply rudder trim in any airplane after a V1 cut.

 

[Brother Francis]

Hey, now

Enigma-

From one ex- 3100 guy to another; there was nothing about the J31 that was not a struggle. A collosal PIA.

You gotta admit, though: she made you a better pilot- sure as shootin' made a man out of me. I look back fondly on my Jetstream days (not that I am in any hurry to go back to them) and still enjoy the blank looks I get from FO's when I call a gasper vent by it's correct name.

 

[JetPilot500]

...Trimming right at the engine failure point is probably not a good idea. There's to much distraction and the possibility of trimming in the wrong direction (yes, I've seen that happen) at a critical time. If you're going to trim, I'd say wait until the gear is retracted.

The folks that I've witnessed who do the best job with directional control on initial climb out after an engine failure are the ones who don't fiddle with the trim initially. They concentrate on just flying the aircraft in regards to flying proper pitch and directional control. They lock in a specific amount of rudder and hold it until clean up altitude.

I noticed with some students that if they introduced rudder trim initially, especially with all the adrenaline rush of the moment, that they have a tendency to maintain the same amount of pressure on the rudder pedal while triming. This quickly gets them in a "out of trim" condition as more and more rudder deflection is used. This usually gets them into a situation where they are fighting their own rudder application and more confusion...

UPS Captain said it best so far here. My experience has always been to leave things alone until you've reached your level off/accelleration altitude...JUST FLY THE AIRPLANE! I have seen and been guilty of trimming and not reducing rudder pressure in the heat of the battle, while ending up in the "out of trim" condition. This will only reduce your climb performance even further and potentially create an additional dangerous situation.

I have never flown an airplane that I couldn't hold the rudder pedal long enough to counteract the effects of an engine failure after takeoff (and I'm no body builder). In fact, in many airplanes, use of Rudder Trim makes the rudder less effective by reducing the available rudder surface area.

In the heat of the battle just fly the airplane. I beleive in the don't touch anything / don't do anything (except retract gear) until you've reached the accelleration altitude. Concentrate all your efforts on flying the airplane in the direction it needs to go and do so while getting all of the performance you can out of this crippled machine. Don't worry about relieving you're leg pressure right away, you can do that in a few minutes.

JetPilot500

 

[FD109]

More on the fed's concerns

I just got some more details on the fed's concern about trimming the rudder early in the V1 cut profile (see my first post in this thread if you haven't), and some of the details are really surprising.

First, he argued with the company APD about rudder trimming as a matter of technique not whether or not my friend passed or failed.

Second, he was there purely as a "gee whiz" observer. He is a brand new fed who apparently comes from a general aviation background.

Third, the new fed was also concerned that the company's procedure is for hands to come off the throttles at V1. (Just like every other operator that I know of.)

Fourth, the fed was not typed in the DC-9 and was at the training center to get typed before serving as an inspector on the airplane.

Pretty soon he will be out there determining whether or not airline pilots are competent in DC-9's and MD-80's. He's gonna have his hands full; let's hope he's a fast learner!

 

[filejw]

FD109
Thats about about right new guy no experience and he's rewriting the AOM. In 24 yrs at my company including 9 in the sim maybe 1 in 20 don't use trim. And thats glass and steam.

 

[surplus1]

Nice thread.

Boy a fella has to be careful with you guys when you start digging into the books. Do you know how much dusting I had to do to get into the old 9 manuals. I hadn't really realized how long ago that was. I checked some other old books too (707 series, CV880, L-188, SF-340) and my current bird. Couldn't find anything specific that mentions when to trim or when not too. Basically I tend to agree with enigma and the UPS gentleman.

[Note to Chicago: Whoa! Forget tying to trim while the airplane is on the ground or anywhere close to it. That's a big no-no in my book and not required in anything I've ever flown. In some airplanes the difference between V1 and Vr can be as much as 20 knots. It would be a real bad airplane (and never certificated) if you had to trim to keep it going during that interval. In your Saab V1 and Vr are virtually the same. You don't need to trim to "keep it on the runway" because its not on the runway anyhow. Just fly the thing and don't do anything else until you get to that magic 400 AAE (except confirm the auto corsen). (I guessed where you are due to your Avtar .... tell Scott I said don't do that ... and never mind who I am. If Dan was your systems instructor, are you sure he really told you that?).

I've taught in both the 9 and 70 series as well as a few other transports, both jets and props, along the way. We never taught anyone to trim before the climb was established and it was pretty much "do nothing but fly" until out of 400 AAE. By that time the gear is in the wells and you definitely know which one(s) aren't running. I see nothing wrong with rudder trim at that point and would even recommend it.

The profiles generally change at the 400 ft point in the props vs jets scenario because the props can't usually accelerate to flap retract speeds while continuing to climb. You have to level, accelerate, clean up and then climb again. All the jets can continue the climb while accelerating. Some birds need aileron input (usually the props) more than others and in my experience about 1/2 rudder throw is usually enough (except in those 2-out same side scenarios that few get to wrestle with nowadays).

In the present airplane, company procedure calls for engaging the autopilot at 600 AAE, but the clean up and checklist doesn't start until 1000 AAE. As you can guess, there will be some rudder trim before the AP is selected on (but it is not mentioned specifically in the books).

It's hard to judge where the trimming that caused the dispute actually occured in the example you gave us. If it took place before the aircraft was under control, on heading and climbing nicely, I'd lean towards the FAA dude, but if it happened when those things were already done, then I think its a matter of "technique" and subject to pilot preference.

Some of the Federales are great people, but there are also (unfortunately) quite a few that moved over from the GA segment with "attitudes" and little experience in the real world. As long as they don't get too carried away we can live with it until they learn. What really gets me going is an "expert" with a few hours in a sim and a new rating who just has to give us the benefit of the FAA's wisdom.

PS> FD109 - looks like we were both writing about the same time and I was just too slow. Exactly what I suspected. Times never really change.

 

[FD109]

FD109
Thats about about right new guy no experience and he's rewriting the AOM. In 24 yrs at my company including 9 in the sim maybe 1 in 20 don't use trim. And thats glass and steam.

Filejw,

In 24 years at EAL and 11 since then at other less "prestigious" places, I saw just about the same ratio of trimming early versus later.

I initially give students the option on when to trim; however, if they are having problems with V1 cuts in the sim I demonstrate the technique of trimming immediately. It makes an absolutely perfect V1 cut virtually effortless and usually makes believers out of them.

In 14 years of instructing and being a check airman I have always taught that technique, and I have never had one of my students bust either a type ride or a PC. Yeah, I know I'm bragging, but I AM proud of that!

 

[surplus1]

Re: More on the fed's concerns

I just got some more details on the fed's concern about trimming the rudder early in the V1 cut profile (see my first post in this thread if you haven't), and some of the details are really surprising. Second, he was there purely as a "gee whiz" observer. <<< >>> He is a brand new fed who apparently comes from a general aviation background.

You know the worst part is that its not really surprising at all. It's happening more and more. That kind of stuff used to be a rarity back when we had GADO and ACDO, but ever since they made it FSDO you see more and more of it. You don't get to many air carrier types applying for those jobs.

Third, the new fed was also concerned that the company's procedure is for hands to come off the throttles at V1. (Just like every other operator that I know of.)

When I saw that it made me laugh. You're headed for trouble buddy. <G> I had one of those yokels tell me I be in serious difficulty if didn't stop calling those things throttles and start calling them thrust levers and, if that wasn't enough, call for Max Power one more time (instead of max thrust) and you're out of the ball game. No, I'm not making it up.

Fourth, the fed was not typed in the DC-9 and was at the training center to get typed before serving as an inspector on the airplane.

Not unusual at all. Most of them have no line experience nowadays. General Aviation or retired military desk pilots. We actually got a #1 Fed once who had never flown a jet. Matter of fact he never flew anything bigger than some light twin. They crammed typed him and he was scared to death of the airplane. Had us bumping up ref speeds and causing all kinds of problems. Wouldn't let us taxi on one, and so on. It took two years to straighten him out. I think the Company got so tired of burning up brakes that somebody finally got the nerve to discretely tell him to cool it or they would refuse him. Now he acts normal, we never see him unless he needs to sign something.

At first I used to worry and b1tch about those types and argue with them all the time, but now I just ignore them. Sooner or later they give up and go away.

One time the company had to let a guy go because he couldn't upgrade to a different type. Low and behold, about 8 months later he turn up at the local FSDO as a Fed. Times change my friend.

 

[sabreliner]

In the E120 at ASA, we still do flight training in the airplane. Part of that training are V1 cuts. The rudder in that situation will be almost on the floor. Generally, the way I do it and have seen instructors teach it is to get control of the a/c, get it flying and the gear up, then trim it up at least some. If you don't, your leg will be quivering pretty quickly and compromise the control that you do have.

In the sim, we also simulate loss of rudder boost and extreme prop overspeeds (140% + Np.) With the loss of rudder boost, it is all you can do to press the rudder to the floor. Trim is critical and needs to be applied pretty soon after getting the a/c under control. With the prop over speed (which this a/c is famous for-hope I never see it!) both the ailerons and rudder are on the stops. Here too it is pretty important to roll in trim soon.

The a/c will be controllable in both situations without trim, but having trim in soon will enable you to relax a little and better deal with the problem.