Travis Barker - 4 killed, 2 hurt as rock star's jet crashes

[400A]

Congratulations Fly91 you turned a informative thread into a name calling session like you always do.

If you want a drag chute, go back and fly an old lear with a drag chute. You seem to think that the drag chute is the saver of all things. You failed to mention a few things that punch a hole in your theory and prove that you just came to pick a fight. First, Drag Chutes have been known to fail to deploy.

http://www.ainonline.com/news/singl...inal-reports-fod-blamed-for-learjet-accident/

http://propilotnews.com/2007_08_01_archive.html

There is something else you failed to mention in your argument, Drag Chutes have been known to deploy in flight. No thanks. If they were the flawless save-all that you say they are, they would be required for certification. I addition to that you should know that systems that rarely if ever get used have a high failure rate.

Your theory and rant about time spent in college does not hold water. It was just meant to insult. Move on to your next fight if you have no viable information to offer.

 

[Papps]

lets eliminate brakes altogether in favor of drag chutes.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The CRJ has a memory action for loss of braking or asymmetrical braking that has you turn off the antiskid switch.

Here's a dodo who experimented and lost

 

[AviateYou]

If you or Bombardier...or any other pilot on earth thinks that a drag chute is a bad idea.....well, you are just that..............MORONS. All of you.

Bombardier does not put the drag chute on the Lear 45 because of cost. Cost is much more important than human life or cost of damage caused by an incident/accident. Go to school and learn something before you comment on liability or anything that has to do with damages. It actually takes some education in a college type setting to realize how important human life really is to USA corporations.

Bombardier would much rather have a certain amount of people die per year, and the insurance companies associated with those operators pay the court awarded claims.....rather than have to make their planes that much more safer and more expensive to their customers.

If you don't know this, all I can say is: go back to school.

Death and damage is a calculated figure....manufacturers KNOW for a 100% fact that both WILL happen. They just have to gamble and build airplnes OR go out of business and do nothing. Its America and they have good lawyers, so they gamble and make planes and ALSO make 100's of millions of $$$ in profit.

Airlines are the same way. They know crashes will happen and are actually waiting and they are prepared for these crashes to happen. They have crash councelors ready, chaplins for the religeous people, media contacts ready to repspond, spokesman to say the right things to the public, and whatever else is part of an air crash. And all they are really worried about is "how do we keep the monetary damages to a minimum." The aircraft manufacturers also have speeches prepared for any crash that might happen. Its part of the aviation business. Live with it or get the hell out. If you think the great and horrible loss of life is NOT going to happen again, well, get the hell out of the aviation business, because you are part of the problem.

Its going to continue, crashes are going to continue, and arguments about how crashes happens will never stop.

Education before, after and during crash investigations are all we have to make the future safer.

Good luck.


space...............

I am hijacking this thread a bit in response to FLY91's post, I read through some of your posts about this terrible accident from which we have lost some absolutely wonderful people, fortunately 2 of them have survived.

"Go to school?" I think we are all trying to do that. It seems as though you are more concerned with liability and the pointing the finger at the manufacturer or airline instead of offering something that might help. I never mentioned that having a drag chute was a bad idea. I just stated that I didn't think the Learjet 45 needed it. I fly the 31A 35A, 55B, and 45XR currently as a full time and part time contract pilot and without trying to give you my resume, First Bill Lear designed the first generation of Lears because he wanted to improve Corporate & VIP travel and present the pilots and passengers the same performance, reliability, and safety that Commercial Airliners had at the time. A host of other owners such as Garrett bought Learjet and continued to improve the Learjet with safety enhancements. They are all good planes in their own way and yes there could be more improvements only if it was really necessary, practical, and cost effective.

Let's talk about the 45, I think I could tell you that Bombardier was sincere in it's wishes with the Clean-sheet design of the 45 and improved XR (this goes for the 40 as well) to improve safety with this aircraft. Improvements such as emergency free-fall Gravity extension trailing link landing gear with 1800 cycle life Carbon Fiber Brakes that offer unbelievable stopping power, plus the standard backup hydraulics and emergency brakes. An improved pressurization system that is much more user friendly and bleed-air system that supplements with HP air during low power settings when the anti-ice is on. A Spoileron back-up roll control in case of total aileron failure. Split elevator system with manual disconnect in case of elevator jam on one side. A much better designed wing with wing droop and vortilons to lower ref speeds and improve low speed handling amongst other features such as an improved spoiler system. Delta Fins that produce lift in the event of an inadvertant full stall that give this aircraft stall handling characteristics that are as docile as one could possibly hope for which also reduce ref speeds and dutch roll. (Bombardier Training Center in Dallas will let you demonstrate this in initial and recurrent training) a split bus DC electrical system that automatically load sheds and turns off power on the non-essential busses during a single or dual generator failure. The smallest jet in the world currently with EICAS or Crew alerting system and fuel system that is easier to operate than a 172. Those are just a few of the safety features that Bombardier designed into the "clean-sheet" Learjet 45 with as well as the BR engines mode which is standard on all XR versions which offer a significant increase in engine performance this along with the wing will puts this aircraft easily at FL 430, 450, and when your are light enough 470 which will definitely help with weather and fuel savings. Please go to school and get some IOE on an aircraft before you comment on design philosophies and an aircraft manufacture's code of ethics because It sounds as though you haven't flown this particular aircraft from your statements - if you had I don't think you would be making those statements about it. It's a very expensive aircraft for it's size but it looks like the Bombardier still wanted to offer their Pilot's and Customers that.

The aircraft manufacturers: sure they want to make money - don't we all? But they also have improved safety at the same time which in turn reduces liability for them in such a volatile personal injury lawsuit settlement hungry culture we seem to have nowadays. ( I know everyone needs to be accountable for negligence - but when does that end? ) Even with all of these enhancements - no piece of safety equipment is better than a well-trained pilot (Not my quote of course) but true.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Clean-sheet design of the 45 and improved XR (this goes for the 40 as well) to improve safety with this aircraft. Improvements such as emergency free-fall Gravity extension trailing link landing gear with 1800 cycle life Carbon Fiber Brakes that offer unbelievable stopping power, plus the standard backup hydaulics and emergency brakes. An improved pressurization that is much more user friendly and bleed-air system that supplements with HP air during low power settings when the ant-ice is on. A Spoileron back-up roll control in case of total aileron failure. Split elevator system with manual disconnect in case of elevator jam on one side. A much better designed wing with wing droop and vortilons to lower ref speeds and improve low speed handling amongst other features such as an improved spoiler system. Delta Fins that produce lift in the event of an inadvertant full stall that give this aircraft stall handling characteristics that are as docile as one could possibly hope for which also reduce ref speeds and dutch roll. (Bombardier Training Center in Dallas will let you demonstrate this in initial and recurrent training) a split bus DC electrical system that automatically load sheds and turns off power on the non-essential busses during a single or dual generator failure.

All nice things, that were already on airplanes in the 1960's.

 

[AviateYou]

All nice things, that were already on airplanes in the 1960's.

Wonderful, what aircraft had Carbon Fiber Brakes, Delta Fins, and Eicas back then?

 

[LJ45]

what new airplane(s) comes with a drag chute these days? Enough said! If they are so great, then someone would still be using them...right?

 

[Basil]

Go back to some kind of school and then start posting your bullsh!t.

If you were being funny or meant to say something I didn't get, sorry. Be more specific when people have lost there ************************* lives.

Huh? That was a completely serious question. I have never heard of a "Nitrogen" Tire Gauge, hence my post. I'm not an A&P, just a pilot. We check the pressures fairly frequently on our -60, but as far as I know, we don't use a "Nitrogen Specific" gauge. If such a thing exists, or if we are using something inaccurate, I want to know.

How you interpreted my post as "being funny" or "Bullsh!t", I'll never know.

 

[AviateYou]

Huh? That was a completely serious question. I have never heard of a "Nitrogen" Tire Gauge, hence my post. I'm not an A&P, just a pilot. We check the pressures fairly frequently on our -60, but as far as I know, we don't use a "Nitrogen Specific" gauge. If such a thing exists, or if we are using something inaccurate, I want to know.

How you interpreted my post as "being funny" or "Bullsh!t", I'll never know.

Basil has a legitimate question and is right - a highly calibrated aircraft type pressure gauge that measures accurately will work and I am sure your AMT or Maintenance Facility can assist you with purchasing the right one. Sorry my bad.

 

[WTF]

Good ?

Huh? That was a completely serious question. I have never heard of a "Nitrogen" Tire Gauge, hence my post. I'm not an A&P, just a pilot. We check the pressures fairly frequently on our -60, but as far as I know, we don't use a "Nitrogen Specific" gauge. If such a thing exists, or if we are using something inaccurate, I want to know.

How you interpreted my post as "being funny" or "Bullsh!t", I'll never know.

He is just looking for an argument. I am glad you asked that because I didnt know either. I also didnt perceive your question as derogatory. What an ass FLY91 is. I hope he stays 91 and far away from me when I am in the air, maybe he can go do circles over Cuba or something.

Back to the discussion please.

 

[Fly91]

Not funny. My drunk dumb friend posted on my computer last night. Disregard.

But I do like drag chutes, they have their place. lol

 

[Fly91]

Not even a good attempt as a joke.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Not funny. My drunk dumb friend posted on my computer last night. Disregard.

But I do like drag chutes, they have their place. lol

Sure it was. It's nice to save face, isn't it?

 

[400A]

Sure it was. It's nice to save face, isn't it?

I think we all know who his "drunk friend" was.

 

[Papps]

Not funny. My drunk dumb friend posted on my computer last night. Disregard.

But I do like drag chutes, they have their place. lol

Don't worry about it, he didn't say you liked drag chutes, he said you liked drag queens.