transponder requirements

[Eric]

I searched here and on Doc's page, but couldn't find the answer.

Where can you go in an aircraft (cub) certificated without an electrical system and without a transponder?

Reading the FARs, I'm pretty sure you can go inside the Mode C veil and under the outside ring of class C, but can you go under the lateral limits of B? Can you go into B or C if you have a radio? Over B or C?

Thanks,
Eric

 

[MarineGrunt]

Part 91.215(b)(3)

EDITED:
Ok, heres how I interpret it...

"Can you go into Class A, B, or C?" - No.
"Can you go underneath the Class B and C veils?" - Yes
"Do you need the Tx w/mode c above 10,000'?" - No
"Can you go above Class B or C?" Yes, if you are above 10,000'

If you are within a 30nm Radius of a class B, you need a mode C Tx above the ceiling of that class B or 10,000' (whichever is lower).
example 1)If the top of Class B or C is 12,000', you can cross it at 12,001'. BUT you can not operate between 10,000' and 12,000 within that 30nm radius.
example 2) If the ceiling of the class b/c airport is 8,000', then you can fly over the airspace at 10,001'. BUT you can not operate within that class b/c between 8,000 and 10,000.

Confused yet? I am...

 

[MarineGrunt]

Ok, I think I found your answer. FAR Part 91.215(b)(3).

§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c (Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A 4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies --

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted --

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower

 

[KickSave]

You can go where ever you want, so long as your request, and are granted, approval from ATC at least 1 hour prior.

So sayeth 91.215(d)(3).

Otherwise (without 1 hour prior approval from ATC) then 91.215(b)(3) still applies - Yes you can operate inside the Mode C veil, but not inside Class A, B or C, and not underneath B or C shelves.

 

[avbug]

Bottom line is that ATC can authorize the deviation in any airspace, and I've operated aircraft in all airspace parcels without transponders, and with inoperative transponders...including Class A.

 

[Eric]

Yes you can operate inside the Mode C veil, but not inside Class A, B or C, and not underneath B or C shelves.

Re-reading the CFR and talking with a FSDO as well as an approach control, I got my answer.

You can operate inside of a Mode C veil, under B and C shelves, but not in B or C without the 1 hr prior approval.

(A side note: if you don't have a radio, the class C controller I talked to said that prior approval isn't possible and they wouldn't let you in)

Thanks for all the replies,
Eric

 

[avbug]

The controller you talked to is wrong.

Conversing with a FSDO level inspector is futile, as he or she has no authority to provide you with a reliable answe, and in all liklihood, is uninformed from the outset. Never rely on what you hear at the FSDO.

 

[A Squared]

I routinely operate around under and through Class C airspace in airplanes without Mode C and in airplanes without any transponder. I have never needed to get 1 hour prior approval. I just call approach well outside the Class C and say "negative Mode C" or "negative transponder" in my initial callup. They almost always allow me to proceed after asking my altitude and reguesting to be advised of any altitude changes. If they're too busy to play that game with me, I just proceed on my way, going under the Class C shelf. In those particular aircraft, I'm operating to and from an airport that is not the primary airport for the Class C airspace, so I can do that. The prevailing attitude at this facility (Anchorage) seems to be that they'd prefer to be talking to me and know what I'm doing and how high I'm doing it, rather than having an annonymous 1200 code or primary return drifiting across thier scope and guessing what it's intentions and altitude are and hoping that it's below the shelf like it's supposed to be.

Other facilities may have a less accomodating philosophy.