Training Reimburs contracts enforceable?

[phantom2120]

Are "Training Reimbursement" contracts enforceable?

Time critical; your help is appreciated. Please refer me to other websites, references, etc.

Many companies make pilots sign a "training reimbursement" contract (if you leave within two years, you owe part or all of the training costs...)

The rumer mill says that these are unenforceable. Does anybody have information about this? Where can I research it? First-hand knowledge and experience is greatly appreciated!

 

[Lindy]

Depends

Ah, a real answer from an attorney. In truth, it depends on the State which the contract is drawn and the wording of said contract.

This question has been posed before. Try completing a search on this board for general information.

Several companies have been successful in retrieving monies, while others have not. The answer isn't as cut and dry as many would like to believe.

It is a difficult decision to sign a contract if you think that you will be recalled. However, in this economy and market, any contract two years or less, you will probably be able to fulfill.

 

[chperplt]

Well, I sent my brother, who is an attorney, and specializes in contracts, my training contract. He says they are 100% enforceable.

Why sign a contract, giving your word, with the intention of breaking that word? If you don't plan on living up to the terms you are required to sign, then simply do not sign.

 

[RJones]

Ahh, it appears you got a problem. I personally hate them...I signed one but do to a furlough got out of it.

Like FurloughedGal said the wording goes a long way in the enforcement of the contract. Some contracts are so binding that if you broke your leg while doing a pre-flight and couldn't work you'd still owe. Others can sue for the costs of training and not even let you know your being sued, and at that, in any court within the state that company is based.

PM me if you want, I could probably look into what you have going on.

RJ

 

[JetPilot500]

I have heard that some companies sell the contract to a Collections Agency. Then, they get all over your A5S to make you pay. They can make your life miserable and give you serious credit problems.

If you do not intend on keeping your end of the bargain, don't do it.

Integrity is the most important attribute a man should have.

JetPilot500

 

[Ty Webb]

"Why did you sign a contract if you weren't going to keep it?"
"Without your integrity, you're nothing"
Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.

Some of you guys need to get down off of that soapbox before you fall and hurt yourselves.

Usually, the companies that have a contract have a turnover problem. Why do you think they have a turnover problem?

Often times, it is because they describe a job that is very different from what they actually are offering. . . The "Family-oriented company" offering a job as a "300 hour-a-year-seldom-gone-weekends, excellent working environment with above-average pay, you'll-love-the-Owner and the-Chief-Pilot-is-a-great- guy" turns out to be 6 days-a-week in hell flying a petty dictator in a poorly-maintained aircraft, with a passive-aggressive borderline manic-depressive pilot to be on the road with for 6 days a week, with no crew cars, and an AMEX card that is almost always declined.

Remember, it's a two-way street. Sure, some pilots have gotten hired and then left before the company got a chance to recoup their investment, but that is the exception, not the rule.

More often than not, it is used as a threat to get a pilot to hang around in substandard flight departments. If it was that good, no one would WANT to leave . . . . .

Anyway, let's put the soapbox away and get back to your question . . . from what I have heard and read, there are generally two types of agreement, and one is more often succesfully enforced than the other.

A PROMISSORY NOTE is like a loan. The note basically says that the Company is loaning you the money for the training, and it is paid back at a certain rate. This is more enforceable than the second kind.

An EMPLOYMENT CONTRACT is harder to enforce, because often it is a very one-sided agreement. It usually says that you agree to work there a specific period of timebut it doesn't usually say what your pay will be, or what your work rules will include, which means it is not clear what you are agreeing to.

If the Company changed your rate of pay to $1. per hour, and made you wear a dress, is it still valid? What if they require you to move in the middle of it? WHat if they add a second aircraft type in the middle of it, and now ywant you to go to school on it? IF you refuse to sign up for a second 12 months for that airplane, but you have six months left on your first agreement, then what?

I think you can see that these agreements are far from perfect, and an attorney can probably get you out of it, but you might be better off agreeing to find a solution you can both live with, instead of you each spending money fighting each other. Tell them you'd like to find some middle ground, and ask them if they would agree to take half of what they think you owe them . . . a Collection Agency will keep half of it anyway.

Good Luck.

 

[Majik]

Note to self:
Make sure you never enter into any type of agreement with a guy named Ty Webb. Wait... On second thought, since he doesn't really feel that "one's word is his bond", maybe this would be a good opportunity to go into half ownership on a plane and leave him a year later with all of the debt. Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket!

Seriously Ty, all situations being normal, you really wouldn't break your signed contract, would you? Does it stop with a company? How about leaving some poor co-worker holding the bag that you agreed to split costs with on a crashpad?

 

[Majik]

Sorry, I didn't realize he was working for a disreputable company that was trying to get him to break the FAR's. I was thinking it was for a more reputable company and he decided to pull chocks for something he decided was a better "flavor of the day". Sounds like he won't have any problem getting some lawyer to take this (sh1thole) company to task and set them right, if the laws were broken!

Also, I was just joking about screwing him over with the agreed-upon costs of the shared airplane to make a point. That being, that a man's word and name should be something he should honor all of the time, not just when it's convienient...

 

[Ty Webb]

What you seem to be missing is that an agreement is a Two-way Street. Often times, the job is much different than advertised. Small flight departments are like families- some are dysfunctional enough to warrant their own segment on the Jerry Springer show. Pilots who stay in those types of flight departments are like the battered spouses . . . You develop a mentality where you will put up with poor treatment because "I gave my word", or because "No one else will hire me right now".

If you would stay somewehre that is substandard because you "gave your word", then you will get what you deserve. Very few companies will look out for your interests, and if you get on with one of those rare companies that do care about your quality of life, you either won't want to leave, or will take the high road and offer to re-imburse them a mutually-agreeable amount if something comes along that you just can't pass up..

In my corporatecareer, I worked for 1 good company, and for 2 crappy ones. The good one asked me to give them a two-year commitment (verbal) which I abided by. They treated me well, and I enjoyed working there.

If I had received an offer from a Major carrier during that two-year period, I would have definitely taken it, but I would have explained why, and offered to make it right. If it cost me $5,000. or whatever, it would have been well worth it (pre-9/11). They would have understood that it was was too good of an opportunity to turn down, and we would have worked it out like gentlemen. That was the good[/] company.

I also have worked for a few crappy companies. They made promises to me that they repeatedly broke, and when the opportunity for a much better job came along, I left with no reservations. I also finished out my year there, but only because that's how long it took to find the good job. Had the opportunity come about sooner, the screen door wouldn't have bumped me on the @ss on my way out, if you get my drift. That was the crappy company.

Is that clear enough for you?

PS, I was involved in the joint ownership of an airplane, thank you very much. Aircraft partnerships are like families- see above.

 

[501261]

Something else to consider is that some training contracts make no provisions for you if you lose your job, get fired, or furloughed.

So it might be in your best interest to only agree to sign the training contract if and only if the company agrees to sign an additional agreement stating that they will not fire you!

Training contracts... the subject comes up every few weeks. They suck but they have become part of the industry. Some very good respectable companies even use them.

I think the biggest thing to look for in a training contract, is it a fair amount? For instance is some sleaze ball trying to get you to sign a 5 year contract worth $30,000 for Chieftain training? Or is someone simply saying we're going to pay $12,000 (going FS rate) for your Hawker recurrent, but if you leave before the first year you are going to owe us $1000 per month for every month you left early.

 

[banned username 2]

My company does not have any kind of training contract...

We even just recently hired a furloughed airline guy (DC-9) and they didn't even make him resign his Seniority number... Sent him to a full FSI Falcon 50EX initial (with Type)....

I guess he could walk away with that new Type Rating today and not owe a dime... Of course it would be the last walk he would ever take cuz' I'd have to break both his legs since I recommened him and he gave me his word he wouldn't go back when recalled. (And so far so good, he was recalled a day after his interview with us, but before our offer was given and he held out for us)...

Needless to say he still walks unassisted! NOW if I can just get him to land on the centerline, my job would be complete!