To the SA crew @ FWA

[FlyaGuppy]

What the h*ll were you thinking?? We are sitting in FWA this morning with Level 5 coming inbound from the west, holding for the wx to clear when we hear SA call for taxi. So this Saab goes out to runway 14 (winds favor 5) so they can try to beat the cells I guess. Well as they get ready for departure, the winds shift to something like 290 at 20+ kts, giving a huge tailwind for 14. Not to mention the heavy rain bringing the vis down to 1 mile or something, lots of lightning, a nearly contaminated runway (that much water), and possible w/s. We expect of course they won't go anywhere, but lo and behold there goes the Saab down 14 trying to takeoff. I was stunned. Thank God that whatever happened to make you abort did, because we were waiting for a worse outcome. WTF???? Come on, use some friggin common sense! All we need is another regional incident or crash because of poor judgement.

 

[350DRIVER]

It is easy to judge these individuals, especially when you have nothing but your own observations/opinions pertaining to what happened .....


always two sides to a story.....

3 5 0

 

[efiscompmon]

Well, here was the morning's wx:

KFWA 121307Z 09020KT 10SM -RA FEW005 BKN025 BKN140 OVC200 16/15 A2999 RMK AO2 TSE01 PRESFR P0001
KFWA 121254Z 09017KT 4SM TSRA BR FEW005 OVC025CB 16/15 A3002 RMK AO2 PRESFR SLP162 OCNL LTGIC E-S TS E-S MOV E P0023 T01560150
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121240Z 09013KT 4SM +TSRA BR FEW005 OVC027CB 16/16 A3004 RMK AO2 PRESFR OCNL LTGIC E-S TS E-S MOV E P0018[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121225Z 11008KT 4SM +TSRA BR OVC033CB 16/16 A3007 RMK AO2 OCNL LTGIC E-S TS E-S MOV E P0011[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121154Z 05009KT 4SM TSRA BR FEW007 BKN020 OVC042CB 16/16 A3005 RMK AO2 PK WND 31027/1133 SLP176 OCNL LTGIC E TS E MOV E P0037 60087 70097 T01610156 10167 20150 51037[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121140Z 05005G27KT 2SM +TSRA BR FEW005 BKN030CB OVC045 16/16 A3008 RMK AO2 PK WND 31027/1133 OCNL LTGIC E TS E MOV E P0031[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121135Z 36007G27KT 4SM +TSRA BR FEW017 OVC043CB 16/15 A3008 RMK AO2 PK WND 31027/1133 OCNL LTGIC E TS E MOV E P0021[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121122Z 04009KT 6SM TSRA BR FEW006 BKN017 OVC041CB 15/15 A3003 RMK AO2 OCNL LTGIC E TS E MOV E P0012[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121114Z 05009KT 4SM +TSRA BR SCT006 SCT019 OVC041CB 15/15 A3001 RMK AO2 OCNL LTGIC E TS E MOV E P0010[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121102Z 06005KT 6SM -TSRA BR SCT006 BKN022 OVC043CB 15/15 A3003 RMK AO2 PRESRR FRQ LTGIC E TS E MOV E P0001[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121054Z 06008KT 6SM -TSRA BR SCT006 SCT022 OVC041CB 15/15 A3001 RMK AO2 SLP161 FRQ LTGIC E TS E MOV E P0044 T01500150[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121044Z 05010KT 3SM +TSRA BR FEW006 BKN044CB OVC055 15/14 A3001 RMK AO2 CONS LTGICCG E TS E MOV E P0043[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121031Z 05006KT 5SM -TSRA BR FEW014 SCT033CB OVC055 15/15 A3000 RMK AO2 CONS LTGICCG E TS E MOV E P0032[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121022Z 02011KT 4SM TSRA BR FEW010 BKN023 OVC033CB 15/14 A2999 RMK AO2 FRQ LTGICCG OHD TS OHD MOV E P0031[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121014Z 06012KT 2 1/2SM +TSRA BR FEW010 BKN023 OVC033CB 15/14 A3000 RMK AO2 FRQ LTGICCG OHD TS OHD MOV E P0029[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 121007Z 05016G24KT 1 3/4SM +TSRA BR FEW003 BKN023 OVC033CB 15/14 A3000 RMK AO2 FRQ LTGICCG OHD TS OHD MOV E P0025[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 120956Z COR 01017G21KT 3SM -TSRA BR SCT003 BKN020 OVC025CB 15/14 A3001 RMK AO2 FRQ LTGICCG OHD TS OHD MOV E P0001[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 120954Z 36013G21KT 3SM -TSRA BR BKN003 BKN010 OVC030CB 16/14 A3001 RMK AO2 TSB46RAB26 SLP162 FRQ LTGICCG OHD TS OHD MOV E P0002 T01560144[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 120854Z 10009KT 1 1/4SM BR OVC003CB 16/16 A2994 RMK AO2 RAE11 SLP138 OCNL LTGIC N CB N MOV E P0000 60004 T01560156 58014[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 120826Z 11010KT 2 1/2SM BR OVC003 16/15 A2996 RMK AO2 RAE11 P0000[/font]
[font=Monospace,Courier]KFWA 120754Z 10008KT 6SM -RA BR OVC007 15/14 A2996 RMK AO2 TSE31 CIG 005V008 SLP144 P0004 T01500144[/font]

I would be curious to know what time this was and which observation was in effect. Not to make excuses, but the crew may have gotten a bad but "ok" atis and had their backs to the wx and not checked atis again. It happens. Not like we have much in the way of weather observation equipment at our "station". Add to that some of our ink-wet type rating captains......

But hey, pay peanuts and you get.....shuttle!

 

[DorkProp]

All we need is another regional incident or crash because of poor judgement.

... since so many occur.

 

[cargoflyr69]

Don't be late, Penetrate!....... HeHeHe

Seriously, there are 2 side to the story as 350driver said. I won't speculate since I wasn't there. It's also unprofessional to bash fellow airmen, er women too, on a public board like this. Don't tell me you've never pulled a bone-head move in your career! We all have, we're all human.

Efis, Curious what you mean about the new "ink-wet type rating captains" here at Shuttle. I think the FAA gave all the type rides this time around and the PTS standards most likely were followed to a T.

 

[cocknbull]

FlyaGuppy,

While I agree with you that "MAYBE" this crew made a poor decision, I am questioning your judgement in posting a thread like this in a public forum. This section had a reporter lurking; looking for the big story the other day. As for your quote "All we need is another regional incident or crash because of poor judgement," I believe I could mention a few crashes at the majors where crews used prro judgement.

 

[dispatchguy]

FlyaGuppy,
s for your quote "All we need is another regional incident or crash because of poor judgement," I believe I could mention a few crashes at the majors where crews used prro judgement.

Southern Airways dual DC9 flameout into New Hope GA
American Airlines MD80 off the runway at KLIT due to thunderstorm landing (shouldve never had been there)
Air Florida Palm 90 off 36 at KDCA due to ice on leading edges and EPR probes
Delta B727 off KDFW trying a no-flap departure in a B727
UAL DC8 into KPDX due to fuel exhaustion
SWA B737 into Burbank (I think) due to a very hot approach onto a short runway

Those are some of the major airline bonehead moves that come to mind... most of them we are all familiar with due to CRM/DRM training.

 

[efiscompmon]

I was referrring to the low total experience of some of our new captains--Florida flight instruction, VFR Caribbean--the lack of hard IFR experience and upgrading in under a year. Flew with an FO last year who got his first ACTUAL time on his third day of IOE. Nice!

I would remove that line if I knew how to edit a post on this new board. What am I missing?

Seriously, those were pretty specific numbers that Guppy gave for the WX. How would the crew know the wind shifted unless the tower called them? 1 mile vis? LTG in vicinity? So? In itself, that's not really an issue. Heavy rain? POSSIBLE windshear? They do have a LLWAS--and tower WILL advise of reported windshear. Didn't see any in the WX.

As for the contaminated RY, it's dang near impossible for a grooved runway to be considered "contaminated" by liquid precip unless there is standing water.

Not saying I agree--'cause I wasn't there--but i don't see unequivocal evidence to hang the crew for anything. And the crash/poor judgement comment was kind of tacky. Not to mention bad karma.

 

[efiscompmon]

now that post had an edit button, but not the one above. Can you not edit after there is a trailing reply?

 

[tyuwerty]

Not all that hard to find out who was flying the originator out of the fort this morning. All one would have to do s call and ask. Captain has 2 1/2 years on the saab. Unless you were in the cockpit with them, you should mind your own business. I have seen plenty of maniline and regional crews make the same mistake (if it was one??) and worse. Why bring it to a public forum? was anyone hurt? was there an incident? WTF?

 

[efiscompmon]

Our new, post-TTN/BED marketing strategy:

http://www.ryano.net/iraq/?1356424

 

[FN FAL]

Notice how the original poster has "plenty" of time. I would bet that he/she has about 1000 total time and not much PIC to speak of. Then they come here and post spores of drama about what others do. That's exactly why I wont spend my money riding on regionals.

 

[rvsm410]

Guppy, Guppy, Guppyyyyyyy....?

I am hesitant to even say anything, but you really need allot more information than you have and more knowledge than you show to make the statement you made here, otherwise you sound like a "white knuckled Flyer" scared to death of flying....

I agree the weather was pretty bad all day in FWA,Bsed on the days METAR reported here, but airlines still fly, maybe delayed but fly. We dont know what Metar was in effect at the time of this flight, as you fail to mention the time this acft was on the move. I also agree with other posters here that many accidents noted were due to Pilots racing in to beat storms,and dispatchers not contatcing crews to divert flights, like at LIT. Lessions etched in many minds. You also fail to mention, probably another lack of understanding of how things work, the fact that behind every flight is a LICENSED DISPATCHER. His/her name is on that release, they have already studied the weather, the aircrafts condition at the time of departure and have fully prepped the crew with that information. When that release is sent to the crews, the PIC must AGREE with the dispatchers assement of the flight plan as well, sign it...before they push back....

If its going to be a long day of TS's then ATC will get envolved in planning departure slots out of the area to coincide with weather movements and ATC flow control, I can assure you that the Tower would not approve an aircraft to start a T/O roll with a TS at the departure end of the runway!, in fact not within 5 NM of the airport if its big enough and producing strong gusts. I've seen jets lined up in ATL more times that I can count waiting for weather to pass the extended runway centerlines, then they all get the heck out of dodge when an opening big enough comes into view...

But lets not forget the PIC, and the Dispatcher can cancel that flight at anytime they feel the situation is unsafe, on the ground or in the air, but were talking on the ground here....If I were that dispatcher and I thought my flight out there waiting to T/O was in grave danger, I would call him on company freq or ask ATC to call him with a cancelled plan and asking him to return to the gate......

My point here, no matter what the skill level is of the pilots, or dispatchers, there are many people highly trained people in the loop to keep bad things from happening, I say let people do there jobs and keep your comment professional especially if you dont know how things work. Ask a question, dont make a statement which make you sound offical to others that might see you as a whistle blower or something. The media loves this crap and can make a mountain out of the flatest land in the country...when there is no story at all.

I personally have flown many times on SA, have spoke to crews and feel they are some of the better pilots I have seen around the regional industry. They are still use to old way of flying IFR and have attained skills that many Major airline pilots have forgotten many years ago because they just dont use those skills anymore. These SA crews still drill holes in the sky where the weather is, the big boys just fly over it....

I say give these guys a break, and give the SA dispatcher more respect for knowing his responsibility.

Of course this is just my opinion,

Col. Bill USAF (ret)

Ps..everyones posts on here are now etched in stone...so be careful.....

 

[GCD]

efiscompmon,


Have you ever flown in the Caribbean, mon? I just got back from 10 days in the Caribbean, and had the wonderful experience of instrument approaches to mins (fog) in Borinquen, and ILS through thunderstorms, to circle mins to RWY 8, side step 10 at San Juan. Let me see, there was Port Au Prince in T-Storms, Santo Domingo in T-Storms and haze, and the wonderful San Pedro Sula (La Mesa), Honduras ILS 22, circle to land 4 in pounding T-Storms and low vis and rotten ATC. Gee, those guys who learn their trade in the Caribben never see weather, huh. I have to admit that Montego Bay Sangster had sunny weather, but those 20 gusting 30 knot winds were interesting.

 

[efiscompmon]

no, I admit my experience is only Bahamian, with some SJU thrown in

 

[Ailerongirl]

This section had a reporter lurking; looking for the big story the other day.

Please! Cocknbull, this is well.....cocknbull! If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best not to post. Emily wasn't lurking, she was very clear as to why she was here and who she was looking for. Please be clear before you start sensationalising.

 

[I.P. Freley]

>>>That's exactly why I wont spend my money riding on regionals.<<<

'Tis pretty hard to get much of ANYWHERE these days without riding on a "regional".

Good luck with your future travel plans, FN.

 

[Snakum]

Maybe Guppy's just a wuss. Perhaps the Saab crew was ex-Ram Air.



Minh
"Why check the weather? You're goin' anyway!"

 

[DirkkDiggler]

I believe the crew actually made a good decision. Granted, they attempted to takeoff where other crews would have elected to change runways or hold for weather. But the outcome was that the crew recognized a situation that was not ideal before any accidents or incidents manifested themselves. They aborted the takeoff after determining that it was unsafe for whatever reason. As a former freight dog, I commend them for trying but leaving a safe "out" in case things turned bad. They tried, took the "out", and went home at the end of the day with nothing to be ashamed of.