Thrust reverser in the flair?

[hellas]

A couple of the "Senior" pilots in our growing flight dept. have gone ballistic and made it an issue to the chief pilot and now policy for us not to use the reverser's during the flair until the nose wheel is on the ground stating "reccomendation" from the Dee Howard thrust reverser manual, and this is the same as a limitation. How do other pilots and flight dept. see this.

 

[mavrck]

we are exactly the same way on the Citation II. No reverse til nose touchie.

 

[gear_guy]

A couple of the "Senior" pilots in our growing flight dept. have gone ballistic and made it an issue to the chief pilot.

Uhhh....as they should have. Think about it. What if only one TR deploys? I know for a fact that FSI teaches this as a no no. There is no doubt that this is dangerous. I have been in aircraft where captains did this. It is a very uncomfortable feeling. One time, only one bucket deployed. I had to push the yoke to get the nose down. It is a miracle that we did'nt end up in the grass that day. My theory is this.....If you want to look like a super-stud on your landings...go fly single-pilot fighters. But don't cop an attitude toward these "senior pilots" who are actually trying to improve safety. Feel lucky that you work somewhere that the pilots are concerned and proactive about safety. This facet of aviation is ruled by whatever is safest. If you can prove to me that it is safer to pull the piggies when the nose is still flyin...I'm all ears!

 

[satpak77]

uhhh

......stating "reccomendation" from the Dee Howard thrust reverser manual, and this is the same as a limitation

this should be a non-issue

either comply with POH/AD's/STC's/etc and aftermarket installed guidance and company ops specs or plan on paying for it somehow, career-wise or worse

flying is risky enought when ALL of the rules are followed. Now you want to "improve upon" things?

later

 

[splatt]

This should be a "know-brainer" ... Don't do it.

 

[SCT]

It's not a very good SOP because of the reasons stated by the other posts. I have also had a situation where only one TR deployed and if not for tiller authority, we would've been in the grass.

Also, I'm not sure about the II, but on a 560XL or X, that procedure would put the plane on it's tail if you didn't have forward pressure on the yoke with strong reverse thrust.
Like Mavrck said "No reverse til nose touchie"

 

[Gulfstream 200]

some dorks think its just real cool to roll down the runway doing a wheelie w/the TRs deployed...

 

[2000flyer]

Yes, the II and 560, at the right speed, TR deploy with the nose off the ground could cause a tail strike.

On the Falcon 2000, Dassualt took care of us and put a weight on wheels switch on the nose gear. The TRs will not deploy until the nose is firmly on the ground. Conversely, if the TRs are deployed and for some dumb-a## reason you decided to lift the nose off the ground, the TRs will stow.

I remember years ago reading how DC9 pilot's would deploy the TRs while the nose was in the air. I've seen and still see them do it. However, when the MD80 series came out, People Express if memory serves me, tried this and promptly removed both bottom buckets on the runway. OUCH!

 

[Thedude]

Wow...I never knew there were some many against the use of t/r while the nose is still in the air.
At least on the 727-200 with -15/-17, we DO USE t/r while the nose is still up. Its all about that little thing called aerodynamic braking. Typical touch down is at 140-160 kts, nose does't come down till about 90-100 kts. Unless you are going to stand on the brakes on a short rwy. We even hold the nose up when we use the auto-brakes.
Some of its about technique and some of its about a/c limitations, but not in our case. So before you start critizing somebody for trying to look cool, maybe you should know more about the ops of that particlar a/c.

 

[pa56pa]

In the CE560's, especially the Ultras and Encores, I heard this was an issue due to nose gear collapses. Because of the design of the hydraulic system, the open-center type, theoretically, it's possible to have insufficient hydraulic pressure for that nose gear once TR's are deployed first prior. I'm not sure if it has been proven, but this is now SOP for the Citation 560s.

 

[Brett Hull]

I'm with Thedude here. Different procedures for different aircraft.

Just because you pull back on the piggyback doesn't mean you have to pull it back to full reverse in one motion. When I was flying a 24 and 31 with reversers, I would deploy them to idle after spoiler extention while the nose is slowly coming down, and not apply power until I got the "two deployed" call from the PM and nosewheel touchdown. When deployed askew, she kept going straight down the runway as long as I didn't pull any power until they were both deployed.

And just to clarify, if the book says none until nosewheel touchdown, then none until nosewheel touchdown.

And to double clarify, I'm not talking about riding wheelies with the TR's deployed either. I also fly the nosewheel down in the lowly little Learjet instead of letting it slam down.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

dude.

he was talking about a Citation, not a 727.

I dont think the touchdown speed of 160Kts, aerodynamic braking, flying the nose down etc...are really applicable...ya know?

I have flown with Citation, Lear guys who did this all the time. They claim it "saved brakes"....great...Its a bad habit - seems to be the thing to do for many freight guys too..bad hangar talk habits...like the 25 in Lexington KY a year or two ago....perfectly good emergency brake but aircraft departed the runway while they were fighting with the TRs trying to stop. Totaled A/C and a dead passenger.

rememeber, BRAKES stop an aircraft, not TR's or aerodynamic braking...

Best habit on old Lears, Citations etc...is to get the F'n nose down smoothly, simoutaneously deploy TR's and be sure brakes ARE THERE. then use TR's as much as you want and brakes as little as needed to stop properly.

so anyways...yes, the "DORK" label stands in this case..

 

[Fokkerflyer]

Different planes, different techniques.

On the GIV, which is nose heavy, deploying the reversers right after touchdown and ground spoiler deployment will prevent the nose gear from slamming down on the deck. If you don't, it could turn your greaser into a crasher really quick.

As someone else mentioned, there's a difference between TR's in idle deploy or in full reverse. Haven't met an aircraft yet that is uncontrollable with one reverser deployed.

FF

 

[h25b]

Have to say that it does depends on the aircraft. For the most part I would rather have the nose on the ground if only one bucket opened. But as stated, on some aircraft it probably doesn't matter. On the Lear, I definately get the nose on the deck before the buckets are deloyed. In short, unless there is some operational reason not to, get the nose on the ground first... Do not try and reinvent the wheel.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

yes folks, again, we are talking about a CITATION. Not a 727 or a GIV.

Many aircraft require flying the nose down, and unlocking the TRs cant do much harm I suppose..but on a Cessna or a Lear this if a bad habit that serves no purpose but to save your scumbag slave driver boss a few bucks on his brake life..

..concentrate on preserving YOUR certificates, not HIS brakes.

eh, heck maybe I will just stick to the DA50 types and forget about the TR issue all together.....

 

[2000flyer]

In the CE560's, especially the Ultras and Encores, I heard this was an issue due to nose gear collapses. Because of the design of the hydraulic system, the open-center type, theoretically, it's possible to have insufficient hydraulic pressure for that nose gear once TR's are deployed first prior. I'm not sure if it has been proven, but this is now SOP for the Citation 560s.

There is an SB out to correct this problem. The only one I heard of was a Bravo, however, NJA jumped on the band wagon and Cessna bought in and issed the SB.

 

[gear_guy]

Haven't met an aircraft yet that is uncontrollable with one reverser deployed.

Apparently you've never flown the aircraft I have. EVERY time only one bucket deployed on landing with nose up....I had to promptly change undies in FBO.

Try this in a lear or citation and you'll see what I mean.

 

[flx757]

I know we're talking Citations and not airliners, but at Alaska on the MD-80, it is prohibited to deploy the thrust reversers until the nose wheel is on the ground (to prevent dragging a bucket), and on the 717 the reversers are wired through ground shift, and WILL NOT deploy, whether you command them or not, until the nosewheel is on the ground.

At another operator where I flew MD-80s, the COM said that we may deploy the reversers when the mains are firmly on the gound, and you have "commenced nose lowering". However, like I mentioned, Alaska's prodedures prohibit deploying the reversers until the nosewheel is on the ground.

Bottom line. Comply with your aircraft's AFM, manufacturer's recommendations, or company policy. To do otherwise is asking for trouble. And usually, when you go looking for it, you will inevitably find it.

 

[Thedude]

Not to throw rocks here but something else I gotta know. How many of you jump the brakes rather than letting the rolling friction of the tires slow the a/c down. And I am talking about rather lengthy rwys here 8000'+.

 

[flx757]

I apply the brakes only after the aircraft has slowed significantly...say to about 80 kts. If it is a long runway, I use idle reverse to slow initially, then slowly come on the brakes. If the runway is shorter, then I will use a bit more reverse thrust, but still try to stay off the brakes until the aircraft has slowed.