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Things never change for UAL exec's

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a320drivr

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Posts
385
Judge approves UAL’s incentive plan

Robert P. Mark
1/19/2006​
A federal bankruptcy judge overseeing the 37-month reorganization of United Airlines parent UAL Corp. overruled union and retiree objections to an equity incentive plan that will award 8% of the 125 million new UAL shares to 400 top managers of the airline.

During the first day of a hearing in Chicago to confirm UAL's reorganization plan, U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Eugene Wedoff listened to union complaints that the proposal is "excessive" at a time when other employees have made concessions to help the airline rebound financially. But he said the U.S. Bankruptcy Code doesn't expressly call for a review of management compensation, so the only reasonable basis for a decision is if the plan is "what's done in the marketplace."

"It may be we have a culture in this country that overcompensates management," the judge said. "But United is just one enterprise that operates in that general environment," and therefore it can't be expected to stand against the tide and be uncompetitive.

The plan approved yesterday calls for 9.8 million shares in the form of restricted shares or stock options to be made available to management, with the rights vesting over four years with the first 20% after six months. The stock compensation isn't tied to performance. Specific awards to top executives and lower-level managers haven't yet been set by the board.
 
a320drivr said:
... "But United is just one enterprise that operates in that general environment," and therefore it can't be expected to stand against the tide and be uncompetitive. ...

What he meant -- "I am just one judge who operates in a country-clubby, big-business environment, and therefore I can't be expected to stand against my social peers and do the right thing."
 
Wasn't this beat to death in two other threads?
 
From USCourts.gov:

Q: What are bankruptcy judges? How are they appointed?
A U.S. bankruptcy judge is a judicial officer of the U.S. district court who is appointed by the majority of judges of the U.S. court of appeals to exercise jurisdiction over bankruptcy matters. The number of bankruptcy judges is determined by Congress. The Judicial Conference of the United States is required to submit recommendations from time to time regarding the number of bankruptcy judges needed. Bankruptcy judges are appointed for 14-year terms.

So my earlier (facetious) post appears to be correct: they are appointed by their cronies.
 
Denver Post stated that these top 400 managers are going to get allocated $450MILLION in stock. This is after cancelling pensions for fa's, gate agents, pilots, etc because their just isn't enough money to fund them. I would be willing to bet that of those 400 managers you could count the number on one hand that have been there longer than 25 years.

This is fricking disgusting. Hard to be proud of this country anymore. We've had the fox guarding the hen house too long. Of course nobody in government gives a flying f#$k because they've all been bought by big bizz.
 
Green said:
Denver Post stated that these top 400 managers are going to get allocated $450MILLION in stock. This is after cancelling pensions for fa's, gate agents, pilots, etc because their just isn't enough money to fund them. I would be willing to bet that of those 400 managers you could count the number on one hand that have been there longer than 25 years.

This is fricking disgusting. Hard to be proud of this country anymore. We've had the fox guarding the hen house too long. Of course nobody in government gives a flying f#$k because they've all been bought by big bizz.

Amen!!!
 
The difference between management and employees

Employee
Do a good job, management says "Your just doing your job."

Do a bad job, get fired

Managment
Do a good job, get a 7 figure bonus

Fukc up the company, leave, get 7 figure severance package

I'm in the wrong line of work.
 
How are you going to attract management if you do not reward them? We talking about $1M each for their efforts. Are not the UAL employees who still have jobs better off now than they would be with liquidation? No one on this board could have done what the UAL management team has done. Without their efforts, all UAL employees would not have jobs. Where is the other 85% of the stock going? The open market? Are there any restrictions on the stock? Is it stock options? If it is stock options with a restriction on sale to encourage management to hang around and increase the value of the stock, then this is good plan to make UAL more stable and growing. I know this will not be received well on a pilot centric board, but that is the way the world is.
 
Okay.

Who flew the company into bankruptcy? (I'll answer this for you: management.)
 
81Horse said:
Okay.

Who flew the company into bankruptcy? (I'll answer this for you: management.)


That would be PREVIOUS management. Goodwin and Dutta. Their grandoise plans led us down the merry road toward BK prior to 9/11, and they did little to solve the hemmoraghing after 9/11. Which union got Goodwin in the CEO seat?
Tilton took the job when the board had a VERY difficult time finding anyone stupid enough to take it. Tilton has quietly replaced quite a few VPs. There has been an enormous turnover of UAL management at the lower levels.
I fully agree with Pilotyip; let me add that UAL was very close to going chap 7 and liquidating back in 2003.

We UAL pilots are far from hands clean on the causes of UAL's need to file BK. Revisionist history makes for a feel good ending, but I'll save that for Hollywood.
 
At the end of the day, I blame the UAL pilots for initiating this "race to the bottom" at the legacy carriers. Anyone with any sense at all would fully expect mgmt to play hardball and extract as much it possibly can from labor. When the time to fight came, the UAL pilots folded TWICE and now they blame everyone but themselves for this... or so it seems. Don't get me wrong here, I have complete and total support for the future of any ALPA pilot in this country including the pilots of UAL. But they really blew it over the last few years when it comes to fighting for their contract and now they expect mgmt to "do the right thing." Completely niave.

BTW, DW is also to blame for this. He should have refused to allow such a debacle to occur under his leadership. I the 1990s, when Al Checci took over NW and mgmt came to the pilots for concessions, they made a deal and gave them an equity stake in their future. While those pilots took a paycut, they made out like bandits on the stock price down the road. This would have been the only way I would have accepted a pay cut if I were a UAL pilot.

I have many friends at UAL and they tell me the absolutely horrible conditions they are forced to work under these days. One can't help but feel sorry for their plight. Yet, they put up no fight to mgmt on this one. We all ought to learn from the failures of the UAL pilot group to stop this downward spiral from within our profession. EVERY pilot needs to get involved with their union if they expect this career to uphold any modicum of a decent wage... unless you think $80,000 a year for your entire career is decent because that's where we're headed.

What happened to labor? Gees!
 
Whymeworry, you're probably one of the same people who were whining on this board when UAL pilots got an industry leading contract in 2000. Problem is, only Delta followed suit; the other airlines' pilots did not pick up the baton and continue to raise the bar. That created a substantial gap among airlines.
You're also probably one of the ones whining that UAL didn't close its doors, and instead went through a painful process while in chap 11.

As for giveaways by UAL ALPA, that was under a different MEC and under far more dire circumstances than UAL is currently in. I fully support the current MEC and expect to see gains PRIOR to the next contract negotiation.

UAL pilots will be getting stock. Even a furloughee like me. That's one helluva MEC to look out for me. It ain't much and doesn't make up for the pension loss, but it's something.

And just for the record, USAirways' pilots led the charge downhill; we followed right behind them. I don't blame them one bit; they did everything they could to keep their company viable.

If you think that any pilot at UAL trusts management, I think that you're sadly mistaken. They're a bunch of SOBs. But their our SOBs. And this set of SOBs is a LOT more competent than the previous set of SOBs who led us into chap 11.
 
Andy said:
And this set of SOBs is a LOT more competent than the previous set of SOBs ...

Management = Management. They win some, they lose some -- but they're all playing the same game.

Andy, when your share prices climb a little, and you get all euphoric and start contemplating how much your stock will be worth next month -- sell. If you can. (I haven't seen the terms of your deal.)
 
Whatmeworry, since you seem to have the answers, if you were made CEO at UAL what would you do to save the airline in 2002? Back then UAL pilots flew the lowest average hours per month of any air carrier 38.5 hours for a guarantee of 82 hours (source Aviation Daily) for the highest hourly pay, their cockpit seat costs were three times that of SWA, and Jet Blue for the same equipment. Extremely unproductive, how woudl you fix that
 
81Horse said:
Andy, when your share prices climb a little, and you get all euphoric and start contemplating how much your stock will be worth next month -- sell. If you can. (I haven't seen the terms of your deal.)

I have always planned on selling within 6 months of receipt of the stock; look like this fall. There are no restrictions on selling it. Thanks for the financial advice.

Also, thanks for pointing out to me that all management is the same. Please get busy and tell those delusional Southwest and JetBlue pilots that all management is the same. I'd hate to see them go through life so blissfully uninformed.
 
81Horse, who do you work for that you're so bitter?
Don't worry; when that fifth stage, acceptance, kicks in, things will seem much more pleasant. It always kicks in for me after I've polished off a fifth.
 
pilotyip said:
Back then UAL pilots flew the lowest average hours per month of any air carrier 38.5 hours for a guarantee of 82 hours (source Aviation Daily) for the highest hourly pay, their cockpit seat costs were three times that of SWA, and Jet Blue for the same equipment. Extremely unproductive, how woudl you fix that

Whoa, let's make sure that things are balanced here.
The numbers dipped that low due to so many pilots being in training as they slid back down in equipment guage. The company had also radically reduced flying and was giving 60 hour 'don't bother to show up for work' lines.
With the large mix of aircraft type on property, the training pipeline during career regression gets pretty backed up.
That number, while correct, is a complete distortion of the truth. Management knew that, but put it out there to gain public support and soften up the rank and file for the non-lubricated bend over. Sans reacharound.

For anyone who mistook me for a management cheerleader, I am not. However, if I could practice with the two ex-Panther cheerleader chicks, maybe I could be a cheerleader. I'm a lot like them; I'm also a lesbian, just trapped in a man's body.
Don't know what I'm talkin' about? Read the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10926612/
 
Andy I only know what I read in the funny papers, but the report of flight productivity for UAL of 47% compared to SWA at 85% and JB at near 90% did stand out. Again, put yourself in as CEO at UAL in 2002, what would you have done differently at UAL?
 
pilotyip said:
Andy I only know what I read in the funny papers, but the report of flight productivity for UAL of 47% compared to SWA at 85% and JB at near 90% did stand out. Again, put yourself in as CEO at UAL in 2002, what would you have done differently at UAL?

I understand; now you know why I only read the important news articles, like the link I posted above.
If I were CEO in late 2002, I would've quietly put the word out that everything was for sale. 'At Crazy Andy's, we've lost our lease and EVERYTHING must go. No reasonable offer refused. Pacific routes? We got 'em. Need LHR slots? We're offering them at below wholesale. Need a few hundred slightly used aircraft? We got 'em in all makes and models. Come on down to Crazy Andy's where I'm just crazy enough to accept your offer.'
I still can't believe that we made it through SARS without liquidating. I read a lot of posts on the UAL ALPA forum where 400s and triple 7s were cruising across the Pacific with sub-20% loads. If I had been CEO, UAL wouldn't be here today. ... and now you know why pilots make such lousy managers.
 
pilotyip said:
Andy I only know what I read in the funny papers, but the report of flight productivity for UAL of 47% compared to SWA at 85% and JB at near 90% did stand out. Again, put yourself in as CEO at UAL in 2002, what would you have done differently at UAL?
Stood out to me too. Maybe employee "ownership" isn't all it's cracked up to be.
 
WhiteCloud said:
Stood out to me too. Maybe employee "ownership" isn't all it's cracked up to be.

You don't understand the whole mixed fleet thing? How long do you think it takes to downguage a pilot from a 400 to a 767 to an A-320?
Again, the training pipeline was backed up to the point where they were offering 60 hour lines in certain fleets and seats to sit at home and do nothing.
I'm amazed that this is such a difficult concept to grasp. How many fleet types are at your airline? Have you ever worked anywhere that has had 4, 5, 6 fleet types with rapid movement (up or down) between type?
Southwest and JetBlue (until recently), with a single fleet type, only have to do differences training when you move from right to left seat. Do you think it wise to just do differences when one moves from a right seat in a 767 to a right seat in an A-320?
This has nothing to do with 'ownership.' If you took a look at Delta and AMR, they were experiencing the same decreased productivity during that time frame. Maybe not as severe as UAL, because UAL reduced the largest percentage of block hours. When 9/11 occurred, there were 7 different training programs, 400, 777, 75/767, A319-320, 727, 737, and steam guage 737.
After 9/11, management decided to park every 727. Every single (under 60) pilot on the 727 that wasn't furloughed had to be retrained. That was something north of 70 aircraft. That aircraft reduction alone left many sitting with thumbs up their butts for 6 months due to TK being at max capacity.
 
Andy said:
81Horse, who do you work for that you're so bitter?

Not bitter -- cynical. And not only about the airline industry; I'm cynical about everything.
 
Andy said:
You don't understand the whole mixed fleet thing? How long do you think it takes to downguage a pilot from a 400 to a 767 to an A-320?
Again, the training pipeline was backed up to the point where they were offering 60 hour lines in certain fleets and seats to sit at home and do nothing.
I'm amazed that this is such a difficult concept to grasp. How many fleet types are at your airline? Have you ever worked anywhere that has had 4, 5, 6 fleet types with rapid movement (up or down) between type?
Southwest and JetBlue (until recently), with a single fleet type, only have to do differences training when you move from right to left seat. Do you think it wise to just do differences when one moves from a right seat in a 767 to a right seat in an A-320?
This has nothing to do with 'ownership.' If you took a look at Delta and AMR, they were experiencing the same decreased productivity during that time frame. Maybe not as severe as UAL, because UAL reduced the largest percentage of block hours. When 9/11 occurred, there were 7 different training programs, 400, 777, 75/767, A319-320, 727, 737, and steam guage 737.
After 9/11, management decided to park every 727. Every single (under 60) pilot on the 727 that wasn't furloughed had to be retrained. That was something north of 70 aircraft. That aircraft reduction alone left many sitting with thumbs up their butts for 6 months due to TK being at max capacity.
Thanks for the education. You've describe a very cumbersome, complicated and inefficient process compounded by lack of training facilities and personel to accomplish a reactionary management directive. What a circus.
 

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