The Terrorists Have Won

[dispatchguy]

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/040111/2354000456_1.html

THis is getting ridiculous, pathetic, disgusting, and any other synonym that I can think of. Being safe means NOTHING if you are not free - didnt Benjamin Franklin say that, what, a couple hundred years ago?

Rather Orwellian..... I might have to reread 1984 to see how INGSOC compares to today, but if I did (since I no longer have my High School lit version), and paid with anything other than cash, I'm sure the Thought Police would show up at my door

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm going to play my favorite tune here.

No, it isn't "jesus loves me."

It's this: give me a better idea. Show me the alternative. Speak up, you Howard Deans and John Kerrys of the world; show me your better plan to keep us secure while thousands plan to "kill the infidel".

I don't instantly equate knowlege of the government with opression. The governmnet already knows TONS of info about you. Where you went to school from your student loan interest deduction. Where you work from your W-2. How much you make. We could go on and on.

Truthfully, had we known more about air passengers on Sept 11th, would we not have averted that disaster?

Can you think of something else that is consistent with our focus on political correctness and what we broadly define as "ciivil rights" that allows for some other course of action?

If so, suggest it.

I sincerely want to know.

Another program will be introduced this year that seeks to speed frequent fliers through security lines in exchange for volunteering personal information to the government, the Post said.

That sounds like the trusted traveller card we've discussed. Maybe we could keep our shoes on if we had one.

 

[EagleRJ]

It's this: give me a better idea. Show me the alternative. Speak up, you Howard Deans and John Kerrys of the world; show me your better plan to keep us secure while thousands plan to "kill the infidel".

Howard Dean was quoted a couple of days ago as saying that another 9/11 would not happen if he was president. Well, I guess he truly has the Big Picture, and has all the security intelligence that President Bush is evidently not privy to!

The Dems have done a lot of belittling and whining, but don't seem to have any solutions, let alone better solutions.

 

[spanky2]

I thought it was Clark who said a 9-11 would not happen if he was prez? Regardless, complete retoric, and just another "victim-cratic" party tactic to win votes from a dumbed-down society.

 

[EOpilot]

Howard Dean was quoted a couple of days ago as saying that another 9/11 would not happen if he was president.

Can you source that quote? I'm not calling you a liar, but I have a REALLY hard time believing that he said that.

 

[GCD]

I believe Clark said it this last week, but he's a worthless piece of work, himself.

Refresh this old man's memory. Wasn't Clark in the chain of command when a retired Air Force officer was brought back on to active to be court martialed for publicly critisizing Clinton? Isn't Clark doing the same thing, possibly worse? I believe Bush has too much integrety to play the same dirty game.

I hope Clark isn't placed anywhere near the Oval Office, now that it has its dignity back.

 

[FL000]

Can you source that quote? I'm not calling you a liar, but I have a REALLY hard time believing that he said that.

LEBANON, N.H. -- Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark said "the two greatest lies" of the last three years were that the Sept. 11 attacks could not have been prevented and that a future attack is inevitable.
"If I'm president of the United States, I'm going to take care of the American people," Clark told the Concord Monitor for a story published Friday. "We are not going to have one of these incidents."

In previous statements, Clark blamed President Bush for intelligence failures that contributed to the attacks in New York and Washington. The chairman of the federal commission investigating the attacks has said mistakes had left the nation vulnerable but did not blame the Bush or Clinton administrations.

Meeting on Thursday with the Monitor editorial board, Clark said: "I think the two greatest lies that have been told in the last three years are: You couldn't have prevented 9-11 and there's another one that's bound to happen."

Campaigning in New Hampshire Friday, Clark stood by the statements despite criticism from his rivals.

"I don't think we have to live in America under a cloud of perpetual fear. We could have done more to have prevented 9-11, we could be doing much more right now to prevent another terrorist strike," Clark said.

"When I'm president of the United States, I will do more."

Most terrorism experts contend the country has much to do to defend itself against a future attack. However, they say complete security cannot be achieved because of the vast number of potential targets and if civil liberties are to be maintained.

Clark told the Monitor that American citizens should not be worried. "Nothing is going to hurt this country - not bioweapons, not a nuclear weapon, not a terrorist strike - there is nothing that can hurt us if we stay united and move together and have a vision for moving to the future the right way."

Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, a Clark rival for the nomination and a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said Clark had overstated the point.

"Is it possible it could have been prevented? Yes. Is it certain? Absolutely not. There is no way to know that," Edwards told reporters in Manchester, N.H.

"In terms of whether it's inevitable that America will be attacked again - what we know is we live in a free and open society and there are lots of things that need to be done to keep the American people safe that are not presently being done," Edwards said. "I think the focus should be on a thoughtful approach on why September 11 happened and what steps could be taken to keep the country safe."

Sen. Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, another of Clark's rivals for the nomination, also called the assurances overstatements.

"Clearly, there were things we could have done that we didn't do, but you've got to be real careful about leveling with the American people because this is a threat that continues," Lieberman said Friday in Concord.

"If somebody is crazy enough to strap bombs around their waist and walk into a crowd, it's hard to prevent that."

Rep. Dick Gephardt of Missouri, campaigning in Manchester, N.H., said, "I don't think any of us saw anything to prevent 9-11. The truth is we all failed on 9-11."

Responding to Clark's comments about future attacks, Gephardt said it's hard to make any guarantees.



© 2003 Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

 

[Q200_FO]

What attacks?

There will be no more attacks. Why?? Becasue all the terrorists have to do is leak some false info to the US government and they just sit there and watch us jump at our own shadows and we end up destroying ourselves over a given period of time. They've made their point. I think their plan was to get America to become so scared of itself that eventually, we lose the freedoms that we have to "national security". They don't have to attack us anymore. We're attacking ourselves.

 

[heels95]

I was lucky enough to have an Aviation Law class while in law school. My term paper concentrated on new security measures and the Fourth Amendment. The computerized system the article references is the Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System II (CAPPS II).

CAPPS II seeks to assign a code to every person traveling by air; green, yellow, or red. If you are assigned a green code, you would be subject only to the usual screening process. A yellow code would mean that you would be subject to extra-intensive security screening. A red code simply means that you won't be flying.

I don't know what all provisions the government will implement, but CAPPS II as originally written would not allow individuals to see the information that was used to assign their code. Additionally, unlike credit reports that can be challenged or appealed, designations by the CAPPS II leave no way for individuals to appeal their designation or to see the criteria on which such designation was based so they can avoid suspicion in the future. You also won't be able to learn what code you are assigned, unless you are assigned red, in which case you would know when you are not permitted to fly.

Timebuilder, I agree that it is hard to find security measures that are effective and still are "politically correct" (I am assuming you are referring to racial profiling) and still protect our civil rights. However, I am worried about a program that doesn't allow us to know what information was used to assign the color code and a program that doesn't allow for an appeal. Can you imagine not being able to fly commercially again because the government used erroneous information in assigning you a red code and you are unable to appeal it?

There are a lot of Constitutional issues behind CAPPS II. On its face, it seems like a great security tool. However, I don't know if all Americans are aware of the Constitutional implications.

Aviation security may best be served by simple random searching or random searching in conjunction with CAPPS II (assuming constitutional issues are settled). The reason behind this is that terrorist cells can work to defeat the CAPPS II. Though individuals don’t know their actual “code,” terrorist cells can sample the system to determine which individuals can pass through security on a consistent basis without being subjected to increased scrutiny. The terrorists cells can then use those members for any “mission.” With a random search system, there is no way to know who will or won’t be subjected to increased scrutiny at any given time.

 

[EagleRJ]

I believe Clark said it this last week, but he's a worthless piece of work, himself.

My mistake- it was Clark that claimed that. They all kind of run together after a while.

I think Wesley Clark is more than an inconsistant braggard. He's been documented as a poor leader. When he announced his candidacy, several of his former subordinates were quick to speak up and say that he really wouldn't make a good president. Evidently his leadership style consists of mostly yelling and placing blame, instead of gathering information and making decisions. He would be told of a problem in the Army and would get angry at the person who told him, even though he had been warned of the same issue several times before with no action taken.
Also, to say that he's underqualified for the position would be an understatement.

CAPPS II really isn't much different than what we have right now. If a passenger is a selectee, they will be coded yellow, and if they're on a watch list, they'll be red. Hopefully this will be a step towards a trusted-traveller program that will let security personnel focus on a smaller pool of more likely terrorists.
Also, this program will run mostly in the background. Most passengers won't realize that it is there.

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree with Dispatch guy..this has gotten out of hand, It seems the goovernment has used the attacks to justify the power trip they are on and infrindge on our rights more than has ever been seen in our countrys history.

Once again, I ask: "What should be done differently to achieve security?"

I hear Clark speaking, but he has revealed ZERO of what he would do to protect America.

Does anyone here have a better idea, or know what secret plan Clark might have in mind?

There will be no more attacks. Why?? Becasue all the terrorists have to do is leak some false info to the US government and they just sit there and watch us jump at our own shadows and we end up destroying ourselves over a given period of time.

I'm not afraid, Q200. Are you?

I don't see anyone jumping at their shadow.

I think there is a lot of stuff going on to verify our intellignece reports and respond appropriately. Do you think it is just by chance that we have not had another attack? But more importantly, do you think that the government will issue a report every time a plot is foiled? That would be showing our hand, and would give the terrorists a road map to follow in planning an attack.

I feel just fine. I have nothing to hide, and I'm glad the government doesn't go blabbing to the media about everything that is being done today.

Loose lips sink ships.

 

[heels95]

Well, the Trusted Traveler Program (TTP) has the same problems as CAPPS II. The TTP is based on a voluntary pre-screening model that allows a thorough background screening against criminal or other relevant databases prior to the actual travel. Travelers who are cleared through the background check are issued an ID that can be used for future travel. The ID card stores the traveler’s credentials, such as biometrics, and allows for a positive match between the card and the traveler. Though the trusted traveler is still subject to screening, the process is much more streamlined and the traveler is not subject to increased scrutiny.

In reality, the TTP is a program whose primary purpose is facilitation and not security. It is a system that will be used to move persons through or around security screening more quickly. Any person who becomes a “member” of the TTP is deemed not to be a terrorist or someone who would pose harm to aviation security. This system seems to have the same inherent flaw as the CAPPS II. Terrorist cells would have another “weapon” at their disposal to avoid increased scrutiny. A terrorist cell could easily recruit individuals that could earn the title of “trusted traveler” and use those persons for their missions.

I personally think the TTP is a terrible program. With any program, however, I think we still need to have random searching. Random searching serves much the same purpose of having air marshals on select flights. Just as terrorists don't know what flight will have air marshals, random searching would prevent there being a security program in place where terrorists "know" they won't be subjected to additional scrutiny in the screening process.

 

[Q200_FO]

TB, you must have crossed your eyes by spending the last 3 days straight in front of your PC, becasue my post went ENTIRELY over your head. I said that WE AS AMERICANS are jumping at our own shadows because we are all running scared everyday thinking there's going to be another attack. Get off your computer, get out into the real world for a change and you will see that most people are totally paranoid. And because of that parnioa, we will be the reason for our own demise.

And yes, I do think that chance has something to do with the reason as to why there hasn't been another attack. It was failed intelligence that caused 9/11 in the first place. This same "intelligence gathering" is supposivedly at work to prevent more attacks. I just can't believe that the CIA, NSA, etc. are working at full capacity to prevent terriorist attacks. The only real thing I see so far is the government wanting to put a microchip inside everybody to "clear you" at the screening line. First there will be cards issued. Then the $hit will hit the fan and the government will start implanting chips in all of us. Freedom no more.

The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the Americans freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight.
--John Fitzgerald Kennedy Columbia University, 10 days before his assassination

 

[Timebuilder]

I said that WE AS AMERICANS are jumping at our own shadows because we are all running scared everyday thinking there's going to be another attack. Get off your computer, get out into the real world for a change and you will see that most people are totally paranoid. And because of that parnioa, we will be the reason for our own demise.

Speak for yourself, jumpy.

I know no one who is paranoid, and I'm on the phone with NYC at least once a day, the home of the 9-11 attack on the WTC. Now, if a New Yorker working at an ad agency in a tall building isn't paranoid, then you must be looking elsewhere.

Where that is, where people are paranoid, I don't know.

And yes, I do think that chance has something to do with the reason as to why there hasn't been another attack. It was failed intelligence that caused 9/11 in the first place. This same "intelligence gathering" is supposivedly at work to prevent more attacks.

Ah, so you're saying that nothing has changed in the intelligence community since 9-11. No improved communication intercepts, not focus on terrorist groups, no additional operatives, no new translators.

Wrong-o.

I just can't believe that the CIA, NSA, etc. are working at full capacity to prevent terriorist attacks.

They are working at increased capacity, with VERY good results. Results that they are wise enough to NOT share with us.

The only real thing I see so far is the government wanting to put a microchip inside everybody to "clear you" at the screening line. First there will be cards issued. Then the $hit will hit the fan and the government will start implanting chips in all of us.

The chip plan is for the buying and selling of goods and services, and is fortold in Revelation. I think this idea will sweep the Europpean community in the next 10 years or so.

Is another attack impossible? Of course not. However, we are making one very difficult to accomplish.

And that's good.

 

[Timebuilder]

The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the Americans freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight.

Well, I can accept one thing that you are saying.

I think you are paranoid.

 

[Q200_FO]

On the contrary, I'm not paranoid at all. I just know better than to run around duct taping my house scared to death that Osama is going to knock at my door tonight. If you were to see the faces of the people on my flights every day, especially when there's a lockdown of the airport like there was early last week, you'll see what I'm talking about. Again, turn off the PC, get out of the house and see for yourself.

I'm on the phone with NYC at least once a day,

So you're on the phone with your buddies every day that just happen to live in New York. That's fine. Just a suggestion though, try going out, yes OUTSIDE of the house (that means turning off the computer) into the general masses when sirens are going off instead of talking with your best buddies on the phone in NYC and you'll get an idea of what I'm talking about.

The chip plan is for the buying and selling of goods and services,

If you really believe that, then you really are sheltered in front of your computer.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

From TB, "The chip plan is for the buying and selling of goods and services, and is fortold in Revelation. I think this idea will sweep the Europpean community in the next 10 years or so."


And is the USA too noble to be exempt from this? Think we're becoming the frog is boiling water. The Chinese and Russians are probably jealous of all the information we have on our citizens. Aren't you the least bit concerned you'll be giving up your freedoms in the future all in the name of (alleged) safety?

TB was right earlier about guberment and commerce having a lot of information on people. When I moved to Orlando a couple of years ago I didn't forward any of the airlines I travel on my change of address. Within two months I was receiving all their junk mail. Never have sent my former college a dime nor have I had any correspondence with them. Yet, even with all my moves, they continue to find me (compliments of my SSN).