The kiss of death?

[00000KT]

Last year didn't passed basic indoc at a top regional airline. I have interviewed with three others since then and all have said thanks but, no thanks.
Is this the end or should I continue a different route?

Thanks

 

[moscowcfi]

I know people in a similar situation and they were eventually able to find a company to work for. It helped for them to present a letter to the interview panel briefly describing the experience, explaining what they learned from it and telling them how they have grown as pilots since then.

 

[Lequip]

If you can't pass basic Indoc then get out and do something different. God knows I wouldn't want to put my family on your plane.

 

[Vik]

Can you tell us how it happened, why, etc.? So the rest of us can learn from this?

Last year didn't passed basic indoc at a top regional airline. I have interviewed with three others since then and all have said thanks but, no thanks.
Is this the end or should I continue a different route?

Thanks

 

[Lequip]

It happened because the dumb a$$ was lazy and/or stupid. Basic Indoc is a NO BRAINER!! My 1st basic 121 Indoc had 40 people in class, 25 new hires and 15 upgrades. EVERYBODY in the class scored 97% + on the final. Totally dumb founded how somebody can manage to wash out of basic Indoc.....Classic!

 

[Ace757]

Exactly what kind of info do you learn in basic indoc?

 

[lrn2fly]

There is a rather easy solution to your problem. Don't bring the indoc incident up. I don't see why you would. You have not failed any FAA 121 check rides so I do not believe there really is any record of it on a background check. Since you didn’t get very far in the program you were never really an employee of the company or a line pilot. If you leave them before taking the oral or sim exam I dont see why you should even be offering this info to a potential employer.

Lequip, although I agree he should really take a long look as to what caused him to fail basic indoc, your comments are really unprofessional and quit heartless. I hope any other people who have a set back in life don't give up in the spirit of hopelessness you offer. The only thing "classic" is your arogant attitude.

 

[dash8driver]

Exactly what kind of info do you learn in basic indoc?

everything you need to know thats not related to systems. meteorology, dispatch stuff, w+b, perf., regs, admin stuff, forms, hazmat, atc stuff, stuff like that.

Can you tell us how it happened, why, etc.? So the rest of us can learn from this

dont worry about it.. you just need to focus on studying, vik.

 

[English]

There is a rather easy solution to your problem. Don't bring the indoc incident up. I don't see why you would. You have not failed any FAA 121 check rides so I do not believe there really is any record of it on a background check. Since you didn’t get very far in the program you were never really an employee of the company or a line pilot. If you leave them before taking the oral or sim exam I dont see why you should even be offering this info to a potential employer.

Lequip, although I agree he should really take a long look as to what caused him to fail basic indoc, your comments are really unprofessional and quit heartless. I hope any other people who have a set back in life don't give up in the spirit of hopelessness you offer. The only thing "classic" is your arogant attitude.

Bad advice. Ever hear of PRIA? Folks have been FIRED for not disclosing this info.

 

[lrn2fly]

Bad advice. Ever hear of PRIA? Folks have been FIRED for not disclosing this info.

Yes, I have heard of Pria but at this point would it even make a Pria record? He has not even gotten to a point of a checkride. Most companies do not consider you an employee until you pass all the checkrides. . If he is not an employee then why even bring up the company at all. Of course if you take FAA checkrides and are employed with the company then the rules are very different. I am not positive but I would check and see because I don't think he went far enough into the program to have marks on any Pria record. I do agree though it would be wise to check.

 

[English]

Yes, I have heard of Pria but at this point would it even make a Pria record? He has not even gotten to a point of a checkride. Most companies do not consider you an employee until you pass all the checkrides. . If he is not an employee then why even bring up the company at all. Of course if you take FAA checkrides and are employed with the company then the rules are very different. I am not positive but I would check and see because I don't think he went far enough into the program to have marks on any Pria record. I do agree though it would be wise to check.

It doesn't matter whether one is an "employee" or not. All that matters is if you'd participated in the airlines' training program. Doesn't matter if you take a checkride or not. Written tests count, too. That was the whole point behind PRIA. If I remember correctly, the trigger to PRIA coming into existence was an accident involving a pilot that busted out of training previously, but did not disclose it to his current employer. PRIA came into being to prevent this.

The bottom line, is, if you have any training at all, whether the company calls you an employee or not, you must disclose that training as having been employed on any future 121 applications. If not, be prepared to face the wrath several from Eagle already experienced this year. A couple went through training at Pinnacle, busted, then applied to Eagle. One in particular did not disclose his training at Pinnacle (his excuse being that he wasn't employed at Pinnacle until after training was successfully completed). He finished sim training at Eagle, and then he was fired for not disclosing everything on his employment application. Pinnacle sent training records, which they were supposed to do, based on the Pilot Records Improvement Act (PRIA).

 

[Lear70]

Notwithstanding Lequip's gentle nudge, you need to ask yourself why you failed out of indoc.

If the answer is simply that you pissed off the wrong person, well... it's happened here at PCL and lesson probably learned. If you are talking about an actual Oral Evaluation, then we have a different animal. We lose quite a few people during initial training, some in part because our training process, quite frankly, sucks. Some because they didn't study, it all depends on why...

The easy answer is that your career is not necessarily "over", but it might be back to "square one" for a while, maybe even a few years of flight instructing or banner towing, or whatever you can do to improve your flying knowledge and skills. Many have been in your shoes before only to perservere and "fight another day".

The second part is, as someone else previously mentioned, putting everything into writing, getting someone else to help you keep it neutral and unemotional, pertinent details only, then find a way to put a positive spin on it and present it to the interviewer. Any number of interview prep people can help you do that, even Kit Darby's guys.

The more experience you can put between this and your next interview, the more likely the interviewer is to give you another shot. However, if you screw the 2nd one up, I'd say you're pretty much done.

 

[Lear70]

D*mn Hilton wireless internet... lost the signal and thought it didn't post.

 

[lrn2fly]

It doesn't matter whether one is an "employee" or not. All that matters is if you'd participated in the airlines' training program. Doesn't matter if you take a checkride or not. Written tests count, too. That was the whole point behind PRIA. If I remember correctly, the trigger to PRIA coming into existence was an accident involving a pilot that busted out of training previously, but did not disclose it to his current employer. PRIA came into being to prevent this.

The bottom line, is, if you have any training at all, whether the company calls you an employee or not, you must disclose that training as having been employed on any future 121 applications. If not, be prepared to face the wrath several from Eagle already experienced this year. A couple went through training at Pinnacle, busted, then applied to Eagle. One in particular did not disclose his training at Pinnacle (his excuse being that he wasn't employed at Pinnacle until after training was successfully completed). He finished sim training at Eagle, and then he was fired for not disclosing everything on his employment application. Pinnacle sent training records, which they were supposed to do, based on the Pilot Records Improvement Act (PRIA).

Thanks English for clarifying the Pria issue in greater detail. It certainly would not be good to omit any training issues considering this information.

 

[Lori Clark]

It doesn't matter whether one is an "employee" or not. All that matters is if you'd participated in the airlines' training program.

Have to disagree with you here English. If you received any sort of payment from the employer you were/are considered "employed" and MUST disclose it to future employers.


Lori

 

[English]

We agree here, Lori. My point is that it doesn't matter if the employer tells the pilot that he/she is not an employee. If they participated in the training, there is a training record/history to be disclosed. Some airlines do not pay during training. Using that criteria, some people believe they do not have to disclose their employment - the reasoning being, that if they weren't paid, they weren't employed. I'm giving the other side of the argument, that the lack of a paycheck does not indicate the lack of an employer/employee relationship. The existence of an employer/employee relationship doesn't even matter when it comes down to PRIA matters. If a pilot participates in training, and/or was an employee, it must be reported on a future employment application.

Is that right? That is the conclusion I reached when I looked into PRIA matters.

 

[350DRIVER]

Although I wouldn't call this the "kiss of death", I certainly would be a little concerned about this when interviewing if I were you. You need to play the part of a great defense attorney ala Mark Geragos who is going to get Scott off the hook out west. Not due to the fact that he is "innocent" but rather due to a "story", "part", and a well scripted out plan that is in place. You need to be able to show that what happened once is history and is not enough reason in itself to turn you down. Spend some time coming up with a story to justify this failure and run with it. You will need to accept what has taken place and be able to explain why you are that much more prepared for "success" on this 2nd attempt. I will tell you one thing, a 2nd failure at a 121 carrier is probably going to be the end of the "game". You need to not repeat past problems, experiences, etc. I would not even contemplate applying or accepting any regional position until you are 100% sure that you have solved all past problems that caused you to wash on attempt #1.


Whatever you decide to do, make 100% sure that you disclose any and all information about what happened, you will be in a world of trouble/hurt if you attempt to hide this in any way. The truth will eventually come out and when it does if you tried to hide this in any way it will mean termination of employment, no questions asked....


The best thing you can do is to do some soul searching and decide if this is really something that you want to do. It is ok to shoot for the stars but make sure you have a backup plan that is in place should you end up coming up short.


Since apparently you have interviewed since and have not been able to obtain the "positive" and "desired" results then I think there are more problems that need to be looked at prior to continuing this process. I have met quite a few that have washed out that were still able to get it turned around and got that second chance that they took full advantage of.

Only you can decide if you want it bad enough.


good luck,

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[Lori Clark]

English - I just re-read your post, I understand where you're coming from now. You are absolutely right, sorry I misunderstood. Guess it's past my bed time...

Say.. the guy who didn't disclose the Pinnacle training - how did Eagle find out about it? Pinnacle wouldn't have known where he was hired or when to send records....

 

[00000KT]

I was going through a painful divorce during ground school/basic indoc
and just couldn’t focus.
Like my buddy Lequip said it is a walk in the park if you study and don’t bring any personal problems/distractions along for the ride.
Lequip: I hope we’ll bump into each other some day…, and please say hello to MRWehner for me.

 

[350DRIVER]

I was going through a painful divorce during ground school/basic indoc
and just couldn’t focus.
Like my buddy Lequip said it is a walk in the park if you study and don’t bring any personal problems/distractions along for the ride.
Lequip: I hope we’ll bump into each other some day…, and please say hello to
MR Wehner for me.

Just explain that to the board, most are very understanding pertaining to personal issues. I would think that your 2nd chance would be a much different one...

keep your chin up-

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