Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

"...the frac model simply doesn't work "

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Keep in mind that I do not know anything about business. But it seems to me... Fractional will do exactly what Berkshire wants it to do.

1. Assume NJ has figured out how to make $200 Million profit operating NJ every year. And that BRK has $1Billion invested. That would be a 20% annual ROI.

2. $200 Million is about 4% of the $5 Billion in annual revenues. American Express is happy with 3% of the Cash that flows through their travel cards. Why shouldn't BRK be happy with 4%?

3. Berkshire is in the insurance business. They are good at evaluating risk. But you know they don't like volatility. So how much Risk and liability is there in running a large global fractional airline?

I am guessing there was a lot more than they wanted the way Santulli was running it.

So I think they will change the mix of Cards, Fractional, and EJM management ... Rate of growth and things I can't even imagine to create a stable ROI and cut in the cashflow. I think this means no rapid expansion.

Nice rational set of questions and observations.

Berkshire doesn't break out the detailed figures for most of the businesses in their SEC filings so we don't have a clear picture of what NJ's financial performance is. Operating income is the figure they sometimes report and this is income before interest, any special charges, and income taxes. The $200 million figure that is talked about has to be reduced by these items before we can compute ROI.

BK paid about $700 million for the business in the 1990's and since then funded the expansion of the US operations and the startup of Middle East and Europe. In addition, they had to fund all the losses incurred prior to 2007 or so which totaled approximately $700 million. We don't know for certain, but their investment in the company is far greater than $1 billion.

A question that won't go away is how does NJ with declining sales, excess aircraft, write downs, and other headwind issues report these remarkable results when the rest of the industry is in the tank? No idea how this is possible...rumors include that under Sokol they changed some accounting for expenses such as hourly charges for engine overalls and discontinuing MSP type items. In other words, they don't expense on an hourly basis anymore and have gone to expensing these items as incurred. Another thought is they front loaded a tremendous amount of future expense when they took the write offs in 2009.

If Sokol was able to turnaround the company and really make the numbers, he deserves a medal for being a financial wizard. It is really perplexing that a business that was growing so much for all these years couldn't turn a profit, but once it starts shrinking, it posts relatively steady profits.

There have been a couple of posts about comparing AMEX and NJ. Two entirely different financial models in that AMEX turns margins on processing transactions in which they don't have any investment. Making 3% (before expenses) on processing a trillion dollars of credit card charges is lot different than selling products/services and trying to make a profit on every item sold.
 
Gret,

I am not sure it is all that different. Its other peoples money that flows into a process ... a BOX... then when the money flows out the other end of the box, Berkshire has taken their 4%. AMEX took 3%.

Not all that different IF, they have figured out how to consistently do it. Yes, I don't know because the way they report things is tricky to decipher, I suspect by design. But if they have figured out how to take about 4% of whatever revenue flows into "the box" ... they have a good thing going.

I have said here several times over the last 10 years that Fractional ownership is the Banking Business. Santulli and Buffett =bankers.

Fractional Aircraft Ownership is like Fractional Reserve Banking. Core Fleets are like the Fractional Reserve. Sell offs are like the LIBOR rates for overnight bank loans.

Manufacturer operated and managed Fractionals will fail because they think this is the airline business or they are interested in aircraft sales. We are a Bank.
 
Last edited:
Many people at Netjets (and I'm sure prior places) hate Sokol, he is purely a numbers guy.

I think he is extremely intelligent, too bad he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Which makes me think, how can someone so smart do something so st___d.
 
Many people at Netjets (and I'm sure prior places) hate Sokol, he is purely a numbers guy.

I think he is extremely intelligent, too bad he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Which makes me think, how can someone so smart do something so st___d.

He's so smart that it never occurred to him that anybody could be smart enough to catch him. Hubris, anyone? There's a lot of it among the "smart people".
 
Many people at Netjets (and I'm sure prior places) hate Sokol, he is purely a numbers guy.

I think he is extremely intelligent, too bad he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Which makes me think, how can someone so smart do something so st___d.

Cutting jobs, consolidating operations, trading in Fiji for Dasani, and cutting expenses to the bone is not rocket science either.. We give these smart CEO's way too much credit...

They are in the position they are in because they were more willing to sell their momma's in order to further their career. They were more willing to stab they're co-workers in the back. Or be a snitch to try to get the blame placed on others. Or flat out knew the right person or happened to be in the right place at just the right time.

Name one thing Sokol did that wasn't mentioned by a pilot over the last number of years.. (except cut jobs on 9/11 and 1/16)
 
The generalization put forth is popular, but not fair. It is like saying that all pilots only care about how much they make and QOL and give a hoot about their employer.

Executives hate cutting people, salaries, and other costs with a passion because it is distasteful and normally a sign of a failed strategy or terrible economic conditions. Success is measured by management and other employees with growth and profits.

Having a great idea or strategy is easy, implementation is tough. If Sokol was a barbarian like Chainsaw Al Dunlop, it was a mistake appointing him to the position. Fortunately, these type of jokers are easily outnumbered by guys like Warren Buffett, Jack Welch, and many other successful executives who are better communicators and team builders.
 
The generalization put forth is popular, but not fair. It is like saying that all pilots only care about how much they make and QOL and give a hoot about their employer.

Executives hate cutting people, salaries, and other costs with a passion because it is distasteful and normally a sign of a failed strategy or terrible economic conditions. Success is measured by management and other employees with growth and profits.

Having a great idea or strategy is easy, implementation is tough. If Sokol was a barbarian like Chainsaw Al Dunlop, it was a mistake appointing him to the position. Fortunately, these type of jokers are easily outnumbered by guys like Warren Buffett, Jack Welch, and many other successful executives who are better communicators and team builders.

I get what your saying...But I think we can all agree Sokol was neither a leader, motivator, or provided any inspiration...... Hansell is pretty much unseen, but I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt in that there have been no further cuts AND an actual recall scenario that may or may not take place... Sokol, although he may have been able to generate huge profits in the energy field, had no business in a luxury field and may go down as one of the worst things that could have happened to Netjets from a customer satisfaction stand point...
 
I get what your saying...But I think we can all agree Sokol was neither a leader, motivator, or provided any inspiration...... Hansell is pretty much unseen, but I'm giving the guy the benefit of the doubt in that there have been no further cuts AND an actual recall scenario that may or may not take place... Sokol, although he may have been able to generate huge profits in the energy field, had no business in a luxury field and may go down as one of the worst things that could have happened to Netjets from a customer satisfaction stand point...

For those that got furloughed from NJA, I understand why they're pi$$ed off at him. Trust me, I do, I've been there before. But don't confuse things, I never said he was a "leader, motivator, and or provided any inspiration".

I said he was "very interlligent" and I think he is. Can't think of many people that could've turned things around as quick and as efficiently as he did. Those deals he got from Embraer and Bombardier, where he got the price he wanted on top of getting those two companies to take our old piece of crap airframes off the property.

I don't care for the guy, but I think he's as sharp as they come

(By the way, I get screwed every week by a policy he installed, which I'm not gonna get into)
 
I have a feeling that anyone flashing enough cash could get equal deals from the manufacturers. Sokol's ability to get a deal on new airframes means nothing if his customer service-related cuts drive the potential owners of these airframes away.
 
I have a feeling that anyone flashing enough cash could get equal deals from the manufacturers. Sokol's ability to get a deal on new airframes means nothing if his customer service-related cuts drive the potential owners of these airframes away.

I agree. Sokol was a self aggrandizing narcissist, and good riddance to him.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top