The Costa Citationair

[V1 Rotate]

Has anyone noticed that Flex Jet Pilots (NON UNION) get to keep there jobs and CA Pilots (Unionized) Don't? Does anyone see the CULTure that KR is trying to build. Hes growing his company while at the same time breaking the union down and eventually eliminating it!!!

Did anyone notice how the nonunion pilots at Flexjet and the rest of the company have managed to prosper (and now grow) despite all else that is going on in the industry? Whether you're pro-union or not, it just goes to show that a company and it's employees can prosper and catch the attention of the competition and (probably) 100's of investors who want a piece of the action. Skywest has been doing for years in the regional world.

 

[doh]

But Skywest has S*** compensation just like every regional.

 

[Newkem]

1108 would ostensibly represent both groups in making a deal for the CA check airmen to fly with the FO line pilots. Will 1108 now sign an LOA allowing line pilots to fly with ATCO pilots, having won arbitration to avoid just that, since the CA guys won't be employees? Will they negotiate contract day rate for the CA guys providing training? If they participate in this would they ever have any hope of organizing any other group, having cannibilized their newest chapter to protect their home group? How will the FO guys like flying with contractors getting paid probably twice as much as them during the integration, knowing that 1108 negotiated both pay scales?

And say what you want about not needing experience, but this is high risk. Bringing in a new program usually means training a core of a few check airmen, bringing in the first three or four planes, then growing at a pace that allows captains to build experience while the fleet grows. By the time the fleet approaches 19 planes, that's over a year and there are a number of experienced pilots to fly with the newbies coming in. Not to mention the ground experience with the plane's capabilities and maintenance needs. Bring in a whole fleet, even over a 6-8 month period, and you're going to have a bunch of crews with little type experience, being supported by Ops and Mx teams with little experience. Unless there's a long-term contract with a significant number of CA captains, this is a recipe for trouble.

This isn't just about learning new EPs, performance numbers and the box and passing a type ride, which any experienced pilot will be able to do just fine. This management team doesn't exactly have the greatest track record on managing risk well. All FO pilots have been here long enough to remember the cowboy days during the first fractional growth spurt. Anyone think the company's been sliding back that way? The ol' seat of the pants approach, thinking everything will work out just fine, will put crews and pax at risk

My condolences to the CA folks if this happens. I hope that, if it does, you hang together and negotiate an extortionary contract rate to come over and provide the seed experience for the newest FO 'value' fleet. And for those predicting that owners exit the program, I think you're partially right. There will be a number who never did and still won't want to be a customer of the 'value' player in the industry. But I bet there'll be a sweet deal, including reduced or no redemption fee, to trade over to a 'luxury' Flex contract - which has the dual benefit for KR of having a higher margin as a share sale, and bringing business over to the non-union side of the house.

Well said! Good points. I dont understand how a CA check airman can train / check pilots from another 135 certificate unless they attend their company indoc and become familiar with their company specific documents, ops specs, standard practices et.al.

FAA will have a field day with this arrangement.

 

[Newkem]

As for safety, I would be more concerned about the pilot losing his job, not so much concerned about the pilot with a new type rating.

So very true. Presumably as Options takes "Ownership" of Citation which will happen immediately, so too will they take "Ownership" of all the liabilities that go with it.

Can there be any greater demand placed on the professionalism of Citation crews than this quagmire? I wish them all the best - thoughts out to them and their families in this difficult time.

 

[shanes123]

Did anyone notice how the nonunion pilots at Flexjet and the rest of the company have managed to prosper (and now grow) despite all else that is going on in the industry? Whether you're pro-union or not, it just goes to show that a company and it's employees can prosper and catch the attention of the competition and (probably) 100's of investors who want a piece of the action. Skywest has been doing for years in the regional world.

Good luck with that Attitude..your the type of employee that KR LOVES..You will be a management stooge in no time..

 

[skyismyoffice]

What happens if Ricci goes away and another Sherringa or Sanjay take over and start running the company from a bean counters point of view?

What amazes me is that you all think the Pilots are pissed the union.

We know that the union wants us to be paid more money and Ricci does not.
It is that simple.

Why would the FO pilots turn their backs on those who want them to earn NJ wages and throw their support to those who want them to earn Mesa wages?

Not saying I want a decertification vote or believe its a good idea- I just think thats part of the plan.

 

[BlueNose]

Well said! Good points. I dont understand how a CA check airman can train / check pilots from another 135 certificate unless they attend their company indoc and become familiar with their company specific documents, ops specs, standard practices et.al.

FAA will have a field day with this arrangement.

It can be done with POI approval if it's under the same FAR Part, as long as the operating programs are compatible, especially for start-up programs. FO would probably just adopt most of CA's SOPs and training program to start, to minimize differences and make it easier. Below is what the FAA 8900.1 handbook says. The FAA won't be the stumbling block here, but 1108 could block the deal. That's why KR's trying to paint them into a corner by going to the FO pilots directly. Gives them a Sophie's choice dilemma, and possibly puts them at risk of a DFR suit either way they choose.

3-1430 APPROVAL OF A CHECK AIRMAN FOR MULTIPLE OPERATORS. This paragraph provides a standard method for approving a check airman to serve multiple operators. The approval of a check airman to serve more than one operator is limited to those cases in which the operator?s aircraft, aircraft operating manuals, procedures, and checklists are compatible in the judgment of the overseeing inspector(s). Provision for multiple check airman approvals may be made for part 135 single-pilot operators, part 135 single-PIC operators, and for part 121 and part 135 operators with programs that are compatible, in the judgment of the respective operator?s POI. An operator?s POI may also approve a check airman to serve multiple part 121 or part 135 operators on a temporary basis, when a startup operation is initiated or when new equipment is being introduced. Other multiple approvals may be made with the concurrence of the regional Flight Standards division when justified.

 

[Newkem]

And the orchestra plays on...

My condolences to CS crews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHsx1cvACkY

Classic.

The Titanic is sinking, but the deck chairs are being rearranged and the orchestra continues to play.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Good luck with that Attitude..your the type of employee that KR LOVES..You will be a management stooge in no time..

I don't have an attitude problem. Just ask anyone I've flown with over the past 15 years and I'm sure they'd tell you otherwise. As far as being a management stooge, that would be laughable to anyone who knows me as well. I just get tired of being told that if I'm not in a union then I'm not not worthy to be in the profession. My post was to simply point out that a union isn't always required for a company and it's employees to prosper. I've paid my share of union dues at previous jobs and I've always said that a "union is needed where it's needed." So far, I'm 0-2 with a union job and 1-0 without. If things start going downhill here, then yeah, let's organize and fight it. I realize that Fight Info is a mostly pro-union forum and to speak up otherwise is calling down the thunder. Like your unwarranted personal attack on me.

 

[luckydog]

Bingo!

FLOPs will own non-union Flex...

FLOPs won't own anyone. DAC only owns FLOPS. DAC and "investors" will own Flexjet LLC.