the answer to all our problems...maybe

[blott]

moved from another post:

Simple idea, not easy to implement:

The airline I work for is a "closed shop" I am REQUIRED to pay union dues. Its my choice if I participate in the union or not. (for the record, I'm very pro union).

Now, that being said, lets look at another profession. Actors. I believe they have something called guild. I'm not really sure what this is, but I think everyone must be a member and sort of gets hired out of it-they have a minimum price-but can be paid at a higher rate.

Why can't we have something like this. We can still have our union, but we can also have a "guild" establising minimum compensation. MINIMUM, not MAX-but it setts the lower level. Our unions will still be there for protection, and negotiating our contracts, just like now. It could be done. If we get enough people at each airline to support it(majority vote) then it could be started. Why would anyone NOT vote for it? Once we get the unions signed on, then anyone not in the guild- would be SCAB material. The guild could set standards for all pilots-from the flight instructors, traffic, cargo, charter, corprate, airline...

Its just a concept...someone else needs to work out the details...

What do you think?

B

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Excellent idea. Just need someone to get the ball rolling.

 

[trainerjet]

This subject was discussed at length once before on this board, and while on the surface it might sound like a good idea and have some merit, the logistics of bringing something like this to a realitly are virtually insurmountable. There are too many different agendas, and even without this, the sheer size of a mission like this makes it highly unlikely this could or would ever be worked out to the point of making it happen.

 

[blott]

Ok trainer, we'll leave you out...(just kidding)

I know it will be hard, didn't we send some guys to the moon once? was that considered to hard to try?

B

Trainer, would you vote for it though?

 

[trainerjet]

Sure..I think it would be a great idea and would support it. I just think that there are too many obstacles to make it realistic. That's just my opinion, though.

 

[blott]

"It would take massive suport"

yeah, but I think we(the industry) is getting to the point where it could be possible, this BS has to end somewhere.

like you said, all the contracts don't end for a while, but they all are within 10 years or so.... about the right time frame.

You said the unions all have their own agendas (sp), but think of it this way. WE are the unions, not the EC's. I say FQ those EC's that don't have our best intrests in mind, we can steam roll them.

B

UNITY!!

 

[46Driver]

I said this in another thread but this best way to establish and enforce a guild like scale comes from the career airlines. Until a regional carrier meets a certain contract and/or wage scale, the pilot at that regional is ineligible to be hired somewhere else regardless of qualifications.

To make this happen, you are going to have to start with the hring committees of the majors (to include Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue, etc.)

 

[skyride56]

Devil's Advocate

First of all, I think this idea maybe do-able. With that being said, I guarantee there is someone reading this thread licking their chops thinking about how much money they can make off us pilots.

My 2 cents,
SR

 

[Lear70]

For a while it seemed that there was a movement towards the idea supported by 46Driver; many of the majors had line pilots on the hiring committees and they worked hard to get your background out of you. Any hint that you had undercut the other guy or worked at a carrier that had "sold out", or had ever crossed a picket line (they had a scab list to refer to), and you were certain to not get hired.

Unfortunately, it appears that most of the HR department people got wind of the effort, and guys and gals like that disappeared for the most part. A quiet movement inside of ALPA where only people like that volunteered for interview committees might be a logical "next step", but going about it is very tricky, difficult to implement and keep quiet, and smacks of "preferential hiring practices", a definite EEOC violation.

I believe that the best "first step" is still education in aviation colleges and flight schools around the country, which would be fought on many levels, including probably the schools themselves who want those students to keep rolling through the pipeline. ALPA probably wouldn't participate, so it would have to be a new organization that educates pilots OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOLS, using the FAA database to mail flyers for seminars to every new private pilot which would focus on career-building, contact-making, and overall marketplace condition and trends. If it was advertised like this (with our goals downplayed), you might even get the SUPPORT of the schools to encourage their pilots focused on an aviation career to attend, then make the education of the attendees of the financial realities and goals of regional pilots in detail part of the program in a subtle but effective way.

This kind of seminar would have a modest fee of $20 to $30 per participant which would cover the seminar space (hotel), some food and beverages, but would rely on VOLUNTEERS from the upper seniority list of regional airlines in each city to speak at these events in target cities around the country, as many as two or three a month, which could realistically, inside a year, cover every major U.S. city inside of a year. Volunteers would keep the cost down while ensuring that only those who really care about this project would participate.

While some might argue that this kind of volunteer work acts in conflict to our goals, I counter that ANY work in our society to better conditions in any arena (homelessness, alcoholism, drug abuse) has always been most effective when staffed by volunteers who truly care about the cause they're working for, and are not motivated by a paycheck for their time. Any thoughts?

p.s. 46Driver - great sentiment about the Corps! Wish more people had that commitment to excellence...

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Originally posted by Lear70

I believe that the best "first step" is still education in aviation colleges and flight schools around the country, which would be fought on many levels, including probably the schools themselves who want those students to keep rolling through the pipeline. ALPA probably wouldn't participate, so it would have to be a new organization that educates pilots OUTSIDE OF THE SCHOOLS, using the FAA database to mail flyers for seminars to every new private pilot which would focus on career-building, contact-making, and overall marketplace condition and trends. If it was advertised like this (with our goals downplayed), you might even get the SUPPORT of the schools to encourage their pilots focused on an aviation career to attend, then make the education of the attendees of the financial realities and goals of regional pilots in detail part of the program in a subtle but effective way.

Sounds like something that could be accomplished through AOPA. With the infrastructure in place, all that would be needed is support for your forum.

Just a thought... it would be easier than going out on your own.

 

[Airpiraterob]

i thought the Screen-Actors-Guild....SAG, was the actors union. and the origional post mentioned those not a member of the pilots guild would be SCAB material? what? okay so youre proposing a union AND a guild. two entities that will battle each other over who controlls the pilot population and the pilots will pay dues to BOTH groups.

now the suggestion of setting a MINIMUM wage limit to prevent any extreme low pay in the industry, good idea at first. now step into the shoes of the guy running the airline. that will be your GOAL is to get the LOWEST allowed. the absolute low limit and not budge. by not having such a thing its still possible to negotiate a good payscale. but with it, the employer sees it and goes for it. youre setting your own doom. however set that low limit too high and youll kill off the reason we have regionals to begin with. they do it cheaper than mainline.

 

[blott]

Yeah, we need a lowest limit payscale set. But our unions can still work the same, we can still strike over it all. As it sitts right now, we don't have a lowest limit, and our pay is reflecting it at alot of companies.

the sag would be there to establish a lowest payscale, and make sure companies can't hire out out of the "pool"

As far as the regionals going away, so be it, the majors, or lcc's, would still need basicaly the same number of ac right? So all us regional guys go to the majors.

the educating of the beginning pilots, in my opinion, would just keep the guys that are trying to help from taking the jobs, the guys that don't care would probably be enough to fill all available spots-and then some.

Just brain storming here guys, trying to figure some way to give us the power, and not management.

B

 

[stillaboo]

set that low limit too high and youll kill off the reason we have regionals to begin with. they do it cheaper than mainline.

Sounds like a plan to me! Where do I sign up?

 

[surplus1]

I really don't want to be negative. If your idea could be made to function it might be a good thing, especially for the low end of the scale. It may not be as difficult (technically) as going to the moon but it may be more difficult in practical application. Here are some things to consider as you develop our idea.

1. The "Actor's Guild" is actually the name of a labor union. If I'm not mistaken, it is the only union that represents actors and other folks in that field.

2. ALPA has been trying for some time to become the equivalent of the Actor's Guild, by trying to make itself "THE Pilots' Union". The campaign has been less than successful and there are many other unions that represent airline pilots.

The first step in getting something done would probably be achieving the goal of ONE union that represents ALL airline pilots. Given ALPA's policies, that is not likely to happen. For the same reason, you aren't likely to get "all pilots" to become members of some other union.

Take a look at the Maritime Union. They have done what you suggest. It starts with the training process. The maritime union controls the training and licensing of US Seamen. If you want to do that work, you train at the maritime academy, you are licensed by the maritime folks, and you just don't get in if you don't "belong"

Management has a counter for it. Why do you think there are so few merchant vessels flying the US flag? The companies don't want to pay the union wages, so the register the ships in foreign countries and hire sailors and officers who are not Americans.

IF you actually gained control of the work force, it is highly probable that the US Government would endorse cabotage and that would end the game.

3. You said you worked in a "closed shop". Perhaps you do, but I doubt it. You probably work in an "agency shop". As far as I know there is only ONE "closed shop" in the airline business in this country. That's the IPA (at UPS). In a "closed shop" membership in the union is mandatory as a condition of employment. In an agency shop, you have to pay a fee, similar to but less than union dues, for the benefits you get from the unions contract. You don't have to be a union member. The difference sounds small, but is actually quite substantial.

It is difficult enough to get companies to agree to "agency shop". It would be virtually impossible to get them all to agree to a "closed shop" especially if that shop was just one union. Companies don't have to agree to this, even if they agree to a union on the property.

4. Even if you got your guild or single union, how will you get a company to NOT hire people that don't belong to your guild/union? As long as a company has a way to bypass hiring the members of your "club", you don't have "control" and can't set a minimum wage at any level. Since you would not control the hiring you would not have the leverage to enforce your standard.

5. You can't do what the sailors do because you don't control the licensing. That is done by the FAA. You don't control the training, there are thousands of "schools" where you can learn how to be a "commercial pilot". If I learned at Joe Blow's Flying Circus and you learned at ERAU, we both get the same license when its over.

Althought the Govt. issues the license, most of the testers are independent businessmen called examiners. Do you see them voluntarily giving that up? It is far to lucrative. Would they be in your "guild" too? How would you get them to join and pay you "dues" when they now get the gravy for free?

These are just a few of the obstacles to the concept. Given the internal conflicts and upheval within the biggest pilot union today, just imagine what it would be like if ALL of us were members? That's exactly why ALPA can't get everyone to join ALPA. They cater to a select few and the rest are just hangers on. A lot of folks don't like that, which is why we have the APA, IPA, SWAPA, Teamsters, NPA, and whoever else is out there.

Again I don't want to be negative, but I just don't see much chance of success. It would take more than a decade, even if everyone wanted it.

I think the practicality is similar to that of a single national seniority list. Not in my lifetime.