TFRs are a JOKE!

[ShawnC]

We have to stop the slippery slope somewhere. I guarantee there will be those in government who will jump at the opportunity to increase their power and control over the population.

Exactly, I hate to quote the Matrix here but it fits.

What do people with power want? More power.

And Rush, it's the democrats that are some of the biggest advocates of restricting GA. Representative Rengal (sp?) of NY proposed a prohibited area over lower Manhattan banning all aircraft. Then again, this is the same guy that proposed reinstating the draft.

I am a Republican, but I am against big government, my mother came here for the freedoms, and opportunity that she just couldn't get in her home country, why would I idly sit by as groups attempt to remove that from us.

So I ask how many more privileges are you willing to give up in the name of security? Driving faster than 15mph is more dangerous than anything else, why don't we ban that. That way you can see the car and jump out of the way.

 

[avbug]

Do you feel that your liberties have been curtailed because you can't fly over disney land now? Should we just blot out a star on the flag for effect? Are you hurting? Can't fly ove the superbowl...that is a killer.

You can't drive onto a military installation with impunity, either. Perhaps that's a serious curtailment of your freedoms, too? After all, those are your tax dollars, right?

Can't carry your concealed weapon in the post office now, or a church. There's a serious loss of freedom. Put the flag away, those rights are disappearing fast.

Give me a break. Perhaps you think that a TFR over a fire or a natural disaster is a big threat to your freedoms, too. It isn't. We're not talking the wholesale parcelling of airspace off to the NSA here...we're talking about very small restrictions that are in fact, temporary.

If a small parcel of airspace over disney world is the biggest thing to gripe your goat, then you have a marvellous life. How hard did you fight to keep the restrictions that were slapped over the grand canyon from happening, or to have a say in how the airspace in the Rocky Mountain National Park was dealt with? Much, much bigger issues in terms of airspace...might I suggest that if you didn't lift a finger to change those, then what right or reason do you have to question a few tiny dots on the map over public gathers and secure sites?

One big TFR sits in the middle of my protection district, over a large chemical/biological weapons storage facility. You may feel the flight restriction over that site is hampering your freedoms, but I surely don't. I was amazed for years and years that there was no restriction there before...only a little note on the map suggesting that pilots are requested to remain xxx' above it. Now that was ludicruous.

Did you disagree with what happened on 9/11 with our airspace system? With so much uncertainty over what was going on, little choice existed but to shut everything down until we knew exactly what was happening and how far that threat extended. On that night, I was requested to take a flight for a company that does a lot of organ transports. A heart became available, but was too far for road transport, and it was critical. I wasn't able to go get that heart. The man went on TV that evening, cried in front of the cameras, along with his family. You might imagine how I felt. Then he died, and the heart we could have retrieved went to waste.

One small event in an ocean of many. Few if anyone would dare suggest that the measures taken on that day were too much. They were absolutely necessary. Despite the crashing of the economy, the lasting damage that ensued, and even the personal tragedies like the man with the bad heart. Nobody questioned such a sweeping act. Yet today, we have tiny, miniscule restrictions that have little impact on our daily lives, hamper us in the most minute way, and we scream bloody murder, our freedoms are being sapped away.

Why is that?

 

[ShawnC]

Avbug,

I have said it before, temporary TFR's based on specific and credible threats are perfectly fine. Your fire TFRs are the same way, they are there until the fire is out, once it's out the NOTAM canceled.

But our major problem is with the feel good TFRs, that target only aircraft operating under Part 91, with a number that establish a no fly zone, that prohibits are Part 91 flight. Remember the stadium TFR, no body had a problem with it, until they pulled all the banner tower waivers because of code orange. Then the sports teams seeing an opportunity to finally eliminate the banner towers pressured members of congress to prohibit all waivers to banner towers for safety reasons.

Now look at Chicago, Mayor Daily used a TFR, that he had to whine at the FAA to get, as the reason that Meigs field had to be destroyed. It's plain to see that the TFRs are being abused as a way for some anti-aviation types to get what they want.

If pilots and AOPA don't fight them, more and more will be imposed until you can't fly anywhere without filing an IFR flight plan.

 

[Flylo]

Looks like it's time to weigh back in.

First, I apologize for not making my original posting more specific. No one, that I'm aware of, has any valid reason to object to true TFRs such as those that cover fires or emergencys. And, of course, military operations or political functions, which would be high priority targets for terrorists, certainly qualify for TFR protection. I don't know anyone who objects to giving the Washington DC area a little extra padding, although it does seem that the concerns of individuals and organizations who have legally operated in or near the DC area for years have been almost totally ingnored in favor of: no profiling, political correctness. And no one should be too upset if George W. and the Secret Service don't want every Tom, Dick and Harry flying over Camp David or Crawford, TX, while he's having a get-together or just relaxing a little. But, although I don't know this for sure, I strongly suspect that these areas have been beefed up militarily so that a violation in one of these particular TFRs carries the very real possibility of getting your butt shot out of the air before you can reach a critical target. If this is the way it has to be, then let's rename these areas, because they are not really TFRs any longer, they are PFRs (Permanent Flight Restrictions).

Second: With the above caveats, I stand by my original premise: TFRs are a JOKE.
None of the pap about political perception or saving one life or giving up a little freedom for added security holds up under the clear light of reason. I remain totaly unconvinced.

Let's take the matter of saving lives, as ShawnC said, there is no way you are going to stop someone in the limited area of these "permanent", feel good, TFRs and you most likely wouldn't be able to stop them in a 200 nm TFR without an active military presence. Rush says you may save 1 life with a minutes notice. Well, what would have happened at the World Trade Centers with a minutes' notice or 10 minutes for that matter? I think more people would have died. Panic would have taken over, all exits would have been jammed shut with bodies and people would have been trampled by the hundreds, maybe thousands. Thanks to the emergency services that took over, after the fact, many more people were able to escape. I think advance notice would have the same effect at any large gathering such as a football game. Groups of people tend to panic before reality sets in, once something like that has taken place, people, for the most part, behave very admirably and with great courage.

Which brings me to the "perception" of safety. Avbug, If all these TFRs are just to present the "perception" of security, let's give the people of the United States a little credit. Most of them have enough sense to know and understand what's going on. Just tell 'em the F#%@# TRUTH!! Every single poster admitted the TFRs won't stop an attacker. Let the public have the truth. They're able to handle it. Nothing short of an airliner is going to take out anything significant and don't you think we've virtually eliminated the airliner as a terrorist wepon. Never say never, but let's face it, the odds against a group of morons commiting suicide in a "ship of the line" are pretty remote with all the new safeguards and if they do get one, the TFRs are meaningless anyway. We take our chances on the highways every day. Surely the odds against getting killed are better living next to a power station or a wepons facility than they are on the Interstates. Case in point, not to far from my home we have one of the chemical/biological storage facilities that Avbug referred to, I've driven past it a hundred times. I can get my car (or 18 wheeler) within a few hundred feet of some of the bunkers. Nobody is worried one little bit about my car or truck but we've got a TFR that won't let me fly within 5 nm flying in something that only weighs or can haul a fraction of the car or truck. You could rain 172s on those bunkers all day long and not disturb that stuff. Which reminds me, why do you need a TFR over an Indian reservation? Nobodys' got a TFR over my reservation!! More political correctness BS.

And that brings us to Tarp, with whom I couldn't agree more. If you don't think there are plenty of people in the Government of this county who would like for us to cower in our bedrooms all day long (except when we go to work, so we can pay taxes and make things for them to enjoy) waiting for the next tragedy to strike, so they can then exert more power and influence over us, you are sadly mistaken. Pilots are by nature, freedom lovers. I think it's hard for them to imagine sometimes, how given the opportunity, some people would conspire to dominate their lives in the name of protecting the public. Flying may be a privilege but it'a a privilege voted on by the democratically elected representatives of the PEOPLE of this country and every time someone tries to take a little piece of that privilege away from you for no good reason, you'd better get on your hind legs and scream bloody murder!!

Them's my thoughts.

 

[VNugget]

I'm gonna leave the rest of the argument alone, but just take exception to your claim that more people in the WTC would have died due to panic/trampling if they had gotten advance warning. I think that is completely unfounded. Why wouldn't people be more panicked if part of the building just blew up, rather than if they got warning to evacuate?

I'm gonna have to side with Rush that even though feelgood 5nm TFRs can do nothing to stop a plane, people can be warned in those precious minutes.

 

[SkyGuyEd]

My personal experience with the Anaheim TFR over Disneyland has been very negative. While VFR, appraoch is allowed to vector you through the TFR, though you can't fly through it without a vector. There are no 'cleared through the TFR' clearances either, leaving it somewhat ambigious as to whether or not you can go through it.

It also compounds traffic problems, as VFR airplanes are now squeezed in above 3000' and below the shelf of the LAX bravo airpace above. All of this is now necessary despite any kind of threat to Mickey.

I just go IFR normally to avoid this mess, but that only works with a rating, leaving students and privates to fend for themselves.