TFR question

[JB74]

While being vectored in class B (VFR), and the controller sends you through a TFR (Disney in this case, 3,000 agl and 3 mile), is that considered a "clearance"?

Thanks

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I think I would always verify it with him specifically about that particualar TFR...couldn't hurt.

 

[SDCFI]

This particular TFR provides an exception for

A) THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES, INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT USING STANDARD AIR TRAFFIC PROCEDURES

. It doesn't make it clear if ATC needs to verbally tell you that you are authorized to enter, or if the simple act of them vectoring you means you are authorized to enter. I would agree with ATR-DRIVR and ask for clarification, especially considering the consequences of busting one. I would call SOCAL APP, you should be able to get a # from the FAA website or something and ask a supervisor. If you do, let us know what they say.

 

[avbug]

You're confused about what aircraft "authorized for operational or safety purposes" are. If you're buzzing through Class B, or any other airspace and encounter a TFR, you're not there operationally. If you're there to land and pick up a patient report the event for the news, drop a load of retardant, illuminate a suspect with your midnight sun, do an IR scan of the scene, take contamination readings, survey the sight for FEMA, or a host of other reasons associated with the purpose of a TFR then you're operationally needed and an asset to safety. Going for that hundred dollar hamburger doesn't qualify.

VFR, receiving VFR radar advisories ("flight following"), you're not automatically authorized or cleared into any airspace unless you receive the specific clearance. Many make the mistake of thinking that because they're talking to a controller while "flight following," they don't need a separate clearance to pass through Class B airspace, a TFR, or any other controlled or restricted area. Not so.

If you're in Class B, and have a class B clearance, you're still not authorized into a restricted area without a dedicated clearance. Bear in mind that ATC may not be providing that clearance, either...especially if you're VFR. The controlling agency for that TFR is the one to ask. This means that if it's a disaster site, then you're going to be talking to the incident commander, air attack, or whomever might be assigned. If it's military, you may be talking to a range controller, or another entity assigned that airspace.

In the case of the Disney TFR, you will need a clearance to enter. Don't assume that you're cleared simply because you received a vector that takes you through that airspace.

After all, if you received a vector that takes you into the side of a mountain, are you cleared to do it? Possibly one might argue yes, but then one must ask if it's really worth paying the cost of admission.

 

[BeachBum]

Speaking from the practical side of things (not the legal side), my experience flying VFR with the Orlando controllers in that if they give you a vector through the Disney TFR, they assume that that is clearance through the TFR. I've been vectored through before, and when I asked about the clearance, the controller told me "as long as you're talking to me you're fine." Now, this all might depend on the controller, and you might as well question the controller just to make sure. No sense in getting in trouble over this.

 

[JB74]

"as long as you're talking to me you're fine."

Just got off the phone with Orlando TRACON and that is what I was told too.

If they give me a vector into the TFR, they are simply telling me that I am "cleared" through that airspace. He said that if there was any problems, that it would be their a$ses, not mine. Hmmm??? I thought the PIC was ultimately responsible?

But, if I was flying 1200 and keeping quiet, then there would be a problem.

He didn't have a reg that I could reference.

 

[SDCFI]

Both Disney TFRs provide exceptions for Law Enforcement, DOD, and aeromedical flights after the part about operational or safety purposes, and then says that a waiver can be issued for those operations pertaining to the safety/security of the venue. So it would seem to me that the operational or safety purposes relates to ATC operations in general. In the case of the original poster's example, if he was getting a vector to avoid a 757 going into SNA I would consider that an operational or safety purpose. I think the purpose of these particular TFRs, besides satisfying the paranoid folks at Disney, is to keep unidentified aircraft from loitering around the park(s). From what JB74 said after calling MCO it seems as long as you're under ATC control all is well. Maybe some day the guvment will realise how stupid and useless these TFRs are. Probably not though.

 

[English]

The bottom line is that if ATC vectors you throught the Disneyland TFR (Anaheim), you are ok. I was vectored through that on almost a daily basis in my previous job going into LGB and SNA, and I never heard a word about it.

A) THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES, INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT USING STANDARD AIR TRAFFIC PROCEDURES

Seems pretty clear. Avbug is going to flame me, but he's wrong on this one.

 

[English]

Here's the full wording...

!FDC 3/2123 ZLA CA. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ANAHEIM, CA.
EFFECTIVE 0303182000 UTC (MARCH 18 AT 1200 LOCAL) UNTIL FURTHER
NOTICE. PURSUANT TO RESTRICTIONS DETAILED IN SECTION 352 OF PUBLIC
LAW 108-7, AND 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS.
AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED AT AND BELOW 3,000 FEET
AGL, WITHIN A 3 NAUTICAL MILE RADIUS OF THE DISNEYLAND THEME PARK
(334805N/1175517W OR THE SEAL BEACH /SLI/ 067 DEGREE RADIAL AT
6.7 NAUTICAL MILES. THIS RESTRICTION DOES NOT APPLY TO (A) THOSE
AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES,
INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT USING
STANDARD AIR TRAFFIC PROCEDURES; (B) DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, LAW
ENFORCEMENT, OR AEROMEDICAL FLIGHT OPERATIONS THAT ARE IN CONTACT
WITH ATC. THOSE WHO MEET ANY OF THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA MAY APPLY
FOR A WAIVER TO THESE RESTRICTIONS: (A) FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES
OF THE VENUE INCLUDING THE TRANSPORTATION OF EQUIPMENT OR OFFICIALS
OF THE GOVERNING BODY; (B) FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY PURPOSES OF THE
VENUE. INFORMATION REGARDING WAIVER APPLICATIONS CAN BE OBTAINED
FROM THE FAA WEBSITE AT HTTP://WWW.FAA.GOV/ATS/ATA/WAIVER, OR BY
CALLING 571-227-1322.


Notice the part about how this restriction does not apply to aircraft arriving or departing from an airport using standard air traffic procedures.

 

[501261]

Just about everybody going into LGB or SNA, especially on the Tandy arrival will have to go through the Disney TFR. No special clearance is needed for the Disney TFR provided you are using "Standard Air Traffic Procedures."