Tell me it is not true!

[Aspiring to be]

These guys started this union business and should pay.

We need you to help us on the list. Flight Options has requested it.



The above is taken from an email between two managers at RTA. The sender continues to be a manager at FLOPS. This person will be charged with perjury (his deposition) and it is suspected that others will also be charged with perjury. This has recently come to light and is being submitted to the court. It is time for the pilots at FLOPS to wake-up and see what the management of FLOPS has done and can continue to do. The management of FLOPS think they are above the law.

 

[hawkercpt]

Thanks...

Merlin.

 

[Aspiring to be]

I am not Merlin. What differance does it make who I am? Are you saying the post is not true? Are you not concern that those pilots were terminated illegally by the company you work for? Are you not concern that they and their famiies have suffered due to the acts of your conpany? Are you not concern that their rights were violated? Are you not concern that you could be next?

 

[hawkercpt]

been there...

done that, got the t-shirt. Life goes on bro, you can take on the chin and get up or lie there in your own blood. What choice you make is your own. The guys who were "illegally" terminted have chosen to get up and fight back. When I was down that road, I chose to get up. By you posting all of the derogitory crap you do, means your a whiner and a cryer. Lying in your own pool of blood!


Deal with it!

 

[Aspiring to be]

hawkercpt is not for real!!

Your reply is not worthy of a reply. Your acceptance of wrong and violation of the law and their rights is just not to be believed.

Take it on the chin. Get real. To be illegally terminated and not fight back would be wrong for them and for all real pilots.

Is the truth derogatory crap?

To stand and fight for what is right is not being a whiner. You are the one that is lying in their pool of blood. What did they do wrong? What law did they break? They elected to work for a contract, all within the framework and protection of the law. Your company violated the law and their rights and you say get over it, just what kind of man are you?

 

[flyboycpa]

.

 

[Aspiring to be]

LOL

What book? Are you talking to me? No book only the true facts!!

 

[flyboycpa]

.

 

[Aspiring to be]

I would like to make one statement and then stop posting for the time being. I know some of you will miss me! Events will determine how long I can remain silent.

I have no desire to see bad things happen to the pilots at FLOPS. I will agree that none of the post about the wrong committed by the management of FLOPS can help the pilots of FLOPS. It is not the pilots that I want to see suffer. I do hope your management pays for their sins. I do hope that it is not just RTN but also the individual that committed perjury and have done everything in their power to hurt those terminated. They will do anything to promote themselves at the expense of their fellow pilots. I do hope they become well know by the pilots of not only FLOPS but through out the industry for the sorry lot they are.

That being said I cannot understand those that attack the IBT or those that support the IBT effort and never acknowledge or talk about the very wrong deeds of the management when the facts are made known. It should be important enough to every FLOPS pilot to read the depositions see the evidence and statements made and seek a solution to the problem.

Doing nothing but complaining about the IBT is not a solution. Accepting actions of management is not a solution. If you have a better idea, a better plan then lets hear it and let us see you take some action. To only complain about those that have tried to make a difference is wrong. I understand the fear to make waves at FLOPS but something must be done to stop that fear. It has been suggested that the pilots are afraid on the road to really talk about their concerns or their believes and that is not good. That same poster suggested that if you voted in a union you would be afraid to speak out against the hard-core union people. It is that spreading of fear and hopelessness that is wrong.

That poster has never been to a union meeting with a bunch of pilots if he thinks all will agree or that any would be afraid to speak their peace. Get three pilots together and you will have some disagreement, so what? There is no fear of reprisals at a union meeting if you do not agree. It is not only acceptable but expected that there will be times that people will disagree, in fact most of the time LOL. To suggest that you will be afraid to express yourself regardless of a union vote or not is a foolish statement.

Others and I have said to ask the pilots at NJ if they have any fear of expressing their position. It is my experience that most pilots that are serving on the MEC or some committee wants the inputs of all sides. The MEC and various committees are elected to serve their fellow pilots, that is what they want to do and they need and want your input. They do not serve a union, they do not have any hidden agendas, they are not trying to gain favor with management, they do not answer to a union, a union does not elect them and they do not work for a union.

To imply because they disagree with the statements of several that a union is bad is wrong. The union is lead by elected members and each person has the same power and rights as the other. Make known your position and run for the elected positions. We can take different views and positions but when the truth is known do not deny the truth, do not hide behind ignorance when all you need to do is look. Do not blame those that were honest and acted in a legal and moral manner. Blame those that acted outside of the law and violated rights that we should all have. Blame those that caused this to happen and not the victims. I know that they control your paycheck but actions must be taken to stop the fear. Fear of unjust reprisals such as the Topliff termination must be eliminated. All of the negativism about FLOPS is a direct result of the actions of your management. From what I am hearing, this is the tip of the iceberg and future events will make this illegal termination case seem like small potatoes.

 

[WileE]

I'm waiting for the facts.

None of which I currently have. The dismissed pilots have a story, management has a story, and everyone I've talked to who was with the company pre-merger has a story.

I haven't found a single pilot yet that was actually with the company at the time of the merger or the dismissals that agrees with those pilots stories. Most of the people who actually knew the pilots seems to think that they were fired for cause (ie not doing their jobs) and their union activities had very little to do with it.

Is this the straight poop? I don't know, but since I've spoke to people with first hand knowledge of the incidents, which since I'm relatively new with the company I don't have, I will tend to believe their story more than what I hear on line. That's especially true when these threads rehashing the "evils" committed by management on those poor helpless pilots seem to appear to coincide with the IBT's mailings encouraging the FO pilots to send in their cards and vote in a union. I don't believe in that kind of coincidence, especially when it's already happened twice in the past couple months.

 

[Pugnacious G]

Union is the only solution

WileE,

One of those guys fired from Floptions was a coworker of mine back in the commuter days. I've talked to him about his firing, and I believe him when he says that they COMPLETELY FABRICATED the grounds for his dismissal.

Now, is there a back story? I'm sure that there is. Most pro-union guys weren't fired. They picked these few, not only to set an example, but probably because they were simply disliked by some or all of management.

Do you want your job hanging on that tenuous thread? Haven't any of you ever inadvertantly pissed off one of your managers?

What about those very senior guys at Flex who got dismissed when Bombardier ordered a downsizing. Clearly they just weren't their manager's favorites.

Only a union (or a very expensive personal lawyer) can protect you from these bogus subjective decisions. It's your career and probably your family's livelyhood on the line. Send in your union cards.

 

[Aspiring to be]

The facts areout there, open your eyes.

Well I did not last long. This WileE is a low life that I cannot sit by and let him get away with his lies. He attempt to attack the character of those terminated. As he knows those terminated were the most well known supporters of the union effort at RTA. Read the deposition, every one stated they knew these men were supporters of the union effort. They used their names in their post and emails. The Chief Pilot at RTA and now 135 Chief Pilot at FLOPS said nothing that would warrant termination. He even said that at RTA Yeager could not have been terminated. This WileE character should also read the deposition of the witness from California. It is available on that other board. The RTA CP said that all of those terminated did a good job and he never had any trouble with them. The fleet manager of the 800XP at RTA said that they were exactly what he wanted in his PIC’s. Not the first person from management from RTA or FLOPS could say anything bad about Jeter or Tumlin and comments about Bowden and Brunet were almost as good. None of them ever had any complaints from owners at RTA, never any training problems, never any professional problems of any kind. They were all very experience pilots with unblemished records. Read the deposition and there can be no doubt that the management of FLOPS violated the RLA and the rights of those terminated. Why protect the guilty? Why try to blame the victims? Why hide the truth or hide from the truth? It is as if some at FLOPS are hoping for an injustice and that the company wins. How can they be so stupid not to understand that they would also lose? It will not happen.

To see the deposition of Coombs go to the http://pub97.ezboard.com/brtapilots General, page 2.



From: Lynn Daugherty [[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2002 10:36 AM
To:
Subject: Secure?

Is this message secure? or will it or any portion be auto forwarded? I need to make sure we can talk about issues without having to worry about other ears.

We need you to help us on the list. Flight Options has requested it. We have been assured that no one else will know. These guys started this union business and should pay. They don't want them over there.

Call me.
Lynn

 

[Live4flyng]

I agree with PUG

It's not unusual for pilots to be skeptical, they just want to make the most informed and best decisions they can. I don't think it's unreasonable for the pilots on this board to doubt you either, Aspiring. If you are trying to give reasons for unionizing, throw some positive ones in there once in a while too.

For all the Options Pilots, I would not let a poster on this forum dissuade you from your decision to unionize. If it were me, I would have sent that card in as soon as I received it. As far as anyone knows that poster could be a member of management trying to rub you the wrong way.

Here are a few facts about a Union:

1. A Union is a democracy, every pilot has one vote.
2. A contract is an agreement between Co. and Union (Pilots).
3. A contract is enforceable by law.
4. Union Dues are 1.5% of income and tax deductible.

There are too many more to list here, but, you get the idea. A Contract is the best reason I can think of for being unionized. The contract is an agreement between the company and the Pilots (Union). It is voted in or rejected by the pilots. It establishes a set of work rules that the company and union must abide by. These rules are negotiated by the union and company instead of dictated to the pilots by management. If the contract is breached by the company, they usually reward the pilot financially.

For Example:

At NJA per the contract, the company cannot work a pilot in excess of 14 hours without PILOT approval.

If a pilot returns to his/her gateway after midnight on their last day of duty, it's an extended days pay, or a compensatory day off.

If pilot reurns to their gateway after 0300 on their last day of duty, it's two extended days pay (approximately $850).

These are just a few examples. A contract gives you choices and protects the pilot group. Personally, I would never work for an airline or large fractional that wasn't unionized. When a company gets too big and the focus shifts to increasing the profit margin, the employees tend to suffer the most. Good luck in your decision.

 

[WileE]

Their character?

Apparently they didn't make much of an impression on the coworkers I've met that knew them. I haven't met an actual RTA pilot who actually knew the guys who would go out of their way to defend them. Does that mean that there aren't a bunch of guys out there who hold them as the paragon of professional virtue? No, there might be a ton of them out there that I haven't met yet. I'll keep asking around, but so far nada. I would certainly trust other actually RTA and FO pilots I talk to before I'll even come close to what comes out of your keyboard A2B, especially having read your past history on these type threads.

As I said, I don't know all the facts and I'm certainly not basing a decision as irreversable as inviting in a union of so far questionable effectiveness (as evidenced by the lack of results with the netjets negotiations) based on one deposition and against everything I've heard actually working the line. Especially since I've never heard of a deposition that didn't tell the whole story (sarcasm).

For Live4flyng I know all about unions and the airline industry, I was a member of ALPA for quite some time and suffice it to say I was less than impressed by their effectiveness and honesty. I was quite happy to come to a company that isn't a closed union shop. So far I haven't seen anything that makes me wish for the kind of hostile working environment that comes with union. I certainly know that having a union when you need one is very important, but just having one because everyone else does and not because management has treated their employees badly is a mistake IMO. A union is a necessary evil at times where management is a greater evil, but if you don't need it stay the heck away from one.

I haven't met a FO pilot (even a lot of former RTA ones) who felt that a union would make FO a better place to work. Everyone I know feels that they are being treated fairly. Do I know everyone who works here and what their story is? Of course not. I'm fairly new at the company so I ask around to everyone I fly with and meet out on line to see how stuff is going in their little part of the world, and everyone has been overwhelmingly positive so far. Even a guy who was leaving the company after five years to take a chief pilot position with another private company had nothing but positive things to say to another pilot about his experience working here (and he was former RTA).

I know right now that as much as Aspiring is trying to push the IBT, he is certainly not helping their cause. Maybe if he wouldn't be so rabid about it and wasn't so offensive he would be setting a better example.

 

[vixin]

Live4
I didnt know a NJA pilot makes $425/day.

 

[Diesel]

your extended day pay is based on your extended day rates.

For me it would be 346.70 for the first extended day and 414.98 for every day after. Next year the rates change for the higher but i'm too lazy to look it up.

Another point.

If we are not realistically scheduled to get home, ie. airlining through chicago to get home and there's a snow storm in chicago. Or they book us an airline with less than 2hrs from scheduled block in time from the leg coming in. Both those points pretty much garantee you a after midnight or 2 days pay. or 1 day pay one comp day.

 

[Live4flyng]

NJA pilots make 1.5 times their daily rates for an extended duty day. A 4 year captain's daily rate is $317.96 resulting in $476.94 per extended day. I was trying to use round numbers to get a point across. So, for a four year captain, two extended days will cost the company $953.88. A first year BBJ pilot makes $1112.64 for the first extended day, multiply that by two and it pays to get in after midnight!

WileE, don't be too quick to judge what the Union has done for NJA. As evidenced by the BBJ LOU, Union negotiations resulted in an 87% vote in favor. Sorry that ALPO let you down, but they really don't care too much about regional airlines, except when you aren't paying dues or bringing them passengers.

I'm not trying to sway anyone to vote either way, I just believe competition is a good thing for all sides. Nothing evil, just increasing the standards of pay and work rules across the board.

Aviation is one of the most dicked up industries. Companies hire like crazy when the economy starts to pick up, and then furlough 10 times the amount they hired if there is one little hiccup. It's nice to have a contract though.

 

[old*art]

I flew with one of the lawsuit guys in another life and will do anything I can to keep him from flying at NJA. He wants a union cause he is more into what he is NOT going to do than what it takes to get the job done. As to unions, I see the need for a contract, but after that, the improvements, beyond what was promised me at hiring, have come in response to market forces and the pilot shortage of years past, not anything I can see the Teamsters have done. I personally think it hurts us more than helps us to be Teamsters in dealing with NJA management, if for no other reason than the image. I certainly do not see where we get $1 million worth a year from the Teamsters. I would like to see NJA transition to a Fractional Pilots Assoc after the contract and hopefully have an organization that would be acceptable to the other pilots of the industry. Just my opinion and worth exactly what it costs you.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Looks like old*art has got his head planted squarely on his shoulders!