Teaching Stalls in Wing Heavy Aircraft....

[Singlecoil]

I used to fly a 207 that was very wing heavy. One solution was to keep only 30 minutes of fuel in the heavy wing and top off the other. That might help your situation.

 

[avbug]

I used to fly a 207 that was very wing heavy. One solution was to keep only 30 minutes of fuel in the heavy wing and top off the other.

That's one soloution.

Another is GET IT FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[paulsalem]

Or you could look at this "problem" in a different light.

Bascially you have an aircraft that has a built in x-wind landing system (that is operational roughly 50% of the time).

Imagine if you could purchase such a feature on an aircraft. The extra option would cost tens of thousands.

:-D


But seriouslly, get it fixed.

 

[taloft]

I'm going to assume that you have checked with maintenance about this and have yourself determined that it is safe. You should also check with the chief pilot if you have one. Obviously, excessive wing drop is not something to take lightly.

Avbug is correct that there may very well be times that you have to refuse an aircraft that someone else says is OK. As PIC, you have the authority to do this and the responsiblity to make the right decision.

If we're just talking slight wing drop (and the airplane is airwothy and safe), I'd see it as a good opportunity to teach the students how to do stall recoveries properly by using the rudder to level the wings (rather than ailerons). Need to break that habit of always using the ailerons to recover, especially in early stall recovery practice.

On the other hand, I'd certainly supplement this with stall practice in an airplane that doesn't have this tendency. Don't want to get them in the habit of mindlessly stomping right rudder every time they stall (obviously).

In short, teach them to respond to the airplane during the stall. Different airplanes will stall differently and only proper recovery technique for the situation is appropriate. It's best they learn this kind of stuff while you are there.

In reality, your students may go out one day and unknowingly rent an aircraft with wing drop (low wing/switchable fuel tanks perhaps) during a stall. Yes, we teach stall avoidance and they should never stall it. However, there is a reason we teach stall recoveries and accelerated/turning stall recoveries. Wouldn't it be nice if they at least had some basic practice beforehand?

Also, avbug is "spot on" in that you must teach students proper pilot judgment. It's possibly the most important thing you will EVER teach them. Good decision making doesn't include stuff like "rent is due" or "fly because it's Christmas." I suggest you use these with your students as good examples of how not to make decisions.

One of the great things about being an instructor is that your students will do exactly what you do: both the good and bad. You owe it to them and yourself to keep the good and get rid of or change the bad. Perhaps you weren't taught everything correctly from your instructors. It happens. I had great instructors, but after becoming an instructor, I realized there were a few bad things I had to throw out when a student mirrored it back for me. Heck, I'm still working on my technique/judgment every flight even when not instructing. Be an example for them so they won't have to change much when it's their turn to teach. Consider yourself training a future instructor (from the first student hour) and all the pilots they will train, not just a future pilot.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Aviator1978,

What kind of example are you giving your students by teaching in this airplane? A very bad one. You should lead the pack by showing your students that as an educated professional, you're prepared to reject an unairworthy airplane. Squawk it, get it rerigged so that it flies properly.

There's no such thing as a "heavy wing." The aircraft is misrigged. Or damaged. Has someone overstressed it, and does it have hidden damage? Is a flap dragging? Something, somewhere is causing this flight condition, and it could range from improper flight control rigging to a control balance issue to a damaged engine mount.

Forget about seeking proper technique for teaching in the airplane...think about w(h)eather you should be teaching in it in the first place. Get it fixed, show the students proper decision making on your part, then continue teaching those stalls.

You're sure some responses will tell you to tell maintenance. I'm not telling you that at all. Yes, you've told maintenance, and maintenance hasn't done anthything about it. You don't have control over that. But you do have control over w(h)eather you continue setting a bad example for students by accepting this condition. I'm not telling you to tell maintenance, I'm telling you to insist, and to set a proper example as both instructor and PIC. Good luck.

Maybe that aircraft was the only one available on that day. I think instead of saying he's giving the student a bad example by using this plane, maybe he can show the student that all planes fly a little different and stall a little differently. Or maybe on that day, practice something other than stalls, and write the aircraft up after you land.
Alot of the 727's that I fly and have flown do not fly straight. That does not mean it's not airworthy and I'm not going to call maintenance and refuse a trip because of it.

 

[avbug]

Maybe that aircraft was the only one available on that day.

More of that soul-narcotic, again. Yes, the aircraft is unairworthy. Yes, it's a bad example for the student. But it's christmas. But it's the only one that's available. But I have to pay rent. But I'll justify it because...because, because, because, but, but, but.

If you try hard, you can justify anything.

Or maybe on that day, practice something other than stalls, and write the aircraft up after you land.

More narcotic. We'll accept it this time and write it up when we land. That is, you already know it's got a problem...if it's enough of a problem to write up when you land, why are you taking it to begin with???

Alot of the 727's that I fly and have flown do not fly straight. That does not mean it's not airworthy

Of course, you know this from studying the aircraft maintenance publications...and you know that airworthy means A) in conformity with approved data (AFM, Mx pubs, AD's, STC's, etc), AND B) is in safe condition for flight. If it doesn't meet both of those criteria, then it's NOT airworthy.

There's an older 172 at my flight school with a heavy left wing. In cruise flight, in order to fly hands off, rudder input has to be such that the ball is deflected to the left, fully outside the "window". As such, the rudder trim tab has been bent to accomplish this wings-level cruise flight.

It's all fine and dandy,

Good luck finding the Mx specifications in the Manufacturers approved publications for rigging an airplane that flies like that, to fly like that...I was handed a C-182 a few years ago prepatory to an annual inspection. One of the things the DZ's regular pilot commented about was that the control wheel required almost full deflection one way to maintain wings level. I approached the IA who had done the work the previous year and signed off the annual, as well as signing off having rigged the controls. His response was that the aircraft just needed a lot of rudder trim to make it fly straight, and not to worry about it. I had to re-rig everything, and I've never seen an aircraft so far out of rig or specification (excepting a couple that have had the ailerons rigged backward).

The Type Certificate Data Sheet calls out specific control deflections, and the maintenance manual echoes the TCDS, as well as giving a number of specifics regarding the rigging of the aircraft. If the aircraft is not in conformity with this data, then the aircraft is NOT airworthy.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
Where I flew 135 cargo, it wasn't uncommon to have an airplane that was rigged a little out of whack, but never to the point that I felt safety was compromised. And, some careful fuel planning/burning made for a comfortable day of flying. In an ideal world I'd have had them fix it, but an ideal world I didn't live in.
Addressing the stall issue, it's why you teach RUDDER, RUDDER, RUDDER for recovery from a stall. A common reflex is to get on the ailerons and correct for the wing drop. A No-No in the Sundowner especially. I used to teach students to use nothing but rudder all the way through the recovery, because this will keep the airplane coordinated and as any student pilot should be able to tell you, An uncoordinated stall leads to a spin... my humble .02 cents.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[pianoman]

In the EMB-145, we have two ball inclinometers and an electronic one on the stby. AI. It's not uncommon to have three different readings. So there's a pretty good chance the one in your 172 could be off. So if you stall it according to that, maybe you ARE actually uncoordinated.

Sucks, I know.