SWA turbine PIC time

[skyaddict]

I have quite a ways to go before I am ever interviewable at SWA as well as a bunch of places because turbine PIC time still eludes me. I'm about to be furloughed and am not ruling out fractionals, especially if the pay situation ever improves while stuck in the right seat for years (a big if). The intriguing thing at fractionals is that one gets typed right away and hence, on paper, can start logging wheels up to touchdown on one's own legs as PIC time, at least in some biz jets (many Citations and Lears are single pilot legal so that already makes it a bit shady I suppose).

That may be fine according to the FARs (which are quite explicit that being and logging PIC are two entirely different animals) but still largely useless for any job applications, because virtually every one specifies that PIC time must only count time where you are signing the flight release. However... SWA's website specifically has expanatory language that aligns its defintion accoridng to the FARs. I was curious if anyone has interviewed there and had issues with such flight time and if it is in practice still 'useless' PIC time even there.

 

[gear_guy]

Lears are single pilot legal

Negative

 

[RedDogC130]

Lears are not

 

[walden]

To answer your proposed question: SWA aligns with most others in that they view PIC time as logged when you're the one called on the carpet when something goes wrong with the flight.

 

[matchthehatch]

skyaddict,

My situation is similar. I have about 950 hrs of "real" turbine PIC time and about 400 hours of time that could be logged as PIC under SWA's interpretation of PIC (I am currently a fractional SIC). After some thread searching and getting some advice from friends and others on this board, I have decided that if I ever do log that 400 hours, it will be only after I have approximately 1500 hours of "real" PIC time, and I will show this time in a separate column in my log book so that, if interviewed at SWA, the pilots conducting the interview will know that I recognize the difference between the two times.

What I have decided is that I will do almost anything possible and ethical to get an interview with SWA. I am getting my 737 type at HPA in March. Following that, I will bust my butt to get out of this fractional gig and into the left seat of a turbine a/c, even if it means a crappy schedule. It will probably be a sacrifice, but will be worthwhile in the long run.

I believe that if you count that time as PIC, you may be able to get interviewed, but your interviewers will not look highly upon your counting that time as PIC. I wish it could be more easily done, but I don't think that is the case. I hope I'm wrong.

Take care

 

[Captain Overs]

Here's an idea.....Why don't you just log PIC time when you are a CA and responsible for the flight? I wouldn't mess around with all this right seat sole manipulator of the controls bit. I wouldn't even make a seperate column for it. I was a CA that was downgraded after 9-11 back into the right seat of an aircraft I was typed on. It sucked, but I didn't log any of it in the right seat as PIC. Southwest is pretty specific and I wouldn't try and pull one by on them.

 

[skyaddict]

I appreciate how the whole issue of logging PIC time can create violent arguments. In a previous life not only was I an instructor but I also worked as a contractor for the FAA on regulatory matters, and it all comes down to the fact that the FAA neither wrote, nor intended for the rules to restrict PIC "time" as having anything to do with being PIC. Now, the airlines can be and are as restrictive as they choose to be, but it as regards SWA, here is their official line on their website... This is a straight paste off thefootnote on turbine PIC time on the SWA website under pilot careers... It looks to me straightforward from the hrose's mouth that they DO count SIC sole manipulator time as PIC if appropriately rated. The *** emphasis marks are mine....
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Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines ***further*** allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

 

[matchthehatch]

Here's an idea.....Why don't you just log PIC time when you are a CA and responsible for the flight? I wouldn't mess around with all this right seat sole manipulator of the controls bit. I wouldn't even make a seperate column for it. I was a CA that was downgraded after 9-11 back into the right seat of an aircraft I was typed on. It sucked, but I didn't log any of it in the right seat as PIC. Southwest is pretty specific and I wouldn't try and pull one by on them.

We're not talking about sitting in the right seat. Skyaddict raises a valid question. I still feel that not counting it, until truly competetive, is the right thing to do.

 

[scoreboard]

I appreciate how the whole issue of logging PIC time can create violent arguments. In a previous life not only was I an instructor but I also worked as a contractor for the FAA on regulatory matters, and it all comes down to the fact that the FAA neither wrote, nor intended for the rules to restrict PIC "time" as having anything to do with being PIC. Now, the airlines can be and are as restrictive as they choose to be, but it as regards SWA, here is their official line on their website... This is a straight paste off thefootnote on turbine PIC time on the SWA website under pilot careers... It looks to me straightforward from the hrose's mouth that they DO count SIC sole manipulator time as PIC if appropriately rated. The *** emphasis marks are mine....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines ***further*** allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time.

Sorry, but I read this as saying left seat and manipulator is the only one who gets to log PIC?? You guys are on the right track, be conservative, call the PD to confirm, they have the answer for you!! best regards,

 

[skyaddict]

I read it saying that the pilot in the left seat can log it, and also the sole manipulator can log it, in those specific circumstances. I'll tell ya what, though. It gives me an excuse to contact an SWA chief pilot. I just have to rememeber to tell him my name a couple times and then, 3 years or so later, to remmeber to say "remember me?" <g>

 

[enigma]

This topic has been beat around about once every two weeks for the last five years. I suggest a search. You'll find a great deal of info.

In short, it doesn't matter that the SWA website appears to allow a type rated FO to log PIC under certain circumstances, they only want you to show time that you flew during which you were the sole responsible pilot. I wish that they would change that part of their qualification language, because it is misleading to the hopeful.

Trust me, they don't want PIC unless you were ABSOLUTELY, UNDOUBTEDLY, UNQUESTIONABLY, the FINAL authority. BTW, it helps if you signed for the airplane, or were assigned by your employer to be the responsible pilot.

I suggest that you NOT log any time that is any way questionable.

To those who are just hours away from the minimum and desperately want to get app in asap, I'll say this: The wait to get legitimate PIC is much easier than the wait to re-apply after you failed to get hired because your PIC was questionable.

My PIC was all Part91 Co-Captain time. I believed that I met the SWA mins took an interview. I am not able to state with absolute certainty that my PIC time kept me from getting the nod, but I can say that I am 90% certain. I've told the story numerous times, search if you must.

I continue to reply to this question because I'd hate to see anyone else make it as close as I did and have to deal with the hindsight that I have dealt with.

regards,
enigma

 

[skyaddict]

Fair enough, and well said. There is only one way around the turbine PIC trap I suspect- and that is to get hired outside the US. From everything I've heard, the turbine PIC or even 'who signs for the aircraft' obsession stops at the border. Not that it is not valued, but total experience is valued more.

 

[blzr]

We ran into an FAA DE the other day and asked him about our situation with two typed captains in the Sabreliner. He seemed to think that since we were both Typed on the SBR1 and have an Airline Transport rating that we could legally both log PIC.

 

[Cosmo1999]

I would say LOGGING PIC and BEING PIC would be two totally different things. I remember a movie quote from somewhere. "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE". Ill go out on a limb and say for resume purposes airlines dont give a crap about "Sole Manipulator" time. They want to see that you can survive upgrade training and that its your butt on the line every flight. This horse is dead.

We ran into an FAA DE the other day and asked him about our situation with two typed captains in the Sabreliner. He seemed to think that since we were both Typed on the SBR1 and have an Airline Transport rating that we could legally both log PIC.

 

[FlyingFred]

"If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position."


This, I believe, pertains to people's like checkairmen, i.e. doing Captain's OE, since the candidate, although sitting in the left seat, can not log PIC time because he/she has not been signed off by the FAA as pilot-in-command yet. Also, if two Captains are flying together, he whose name is on the release is PIC, although that person could be occupying the right seat as he/she is right-seat qualified.

Some fractionals type both pilots, and the pilots trade off legs and seats for logging of PIC time. Keep it simple: if you are the Captain, you log PIC time.

 

[jeff_lebowski]

You can both legally log PIC. One is doing it under the FAR part 1 and 61.51.e.1.iii definition and the other is doing it under the FAR part 61.51.e.1.i as the "sole manipulator of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated." This is how you can log PIC while you were recieving instrument instruction as a private pilot with an ASEL "rating." Basically, one is "ACTING" as PIC, the other is "ALLOWED TO LOG" PIC.

Further, you are only "required" to log training and experience required to be used to meet certification requirements or recency of experience requirements (see 61.51). Your logbook is your logbook, and regardless of what anyone tells you, you can write anything you want in it (ie logging trips to the bar!) so long as you can comply with proving required training and experience. Period. Therefore, anyone can ask you to log your time in any way they see fit to prove your qualifications as a potential employee, but you are not required to do so. And by the way, this is why (I think) that when you go to SWA, they have a one on one logbook "review." This allows them to ask any questions to get a clear view of your qualifications, in case yor manner of logging time is "nonstandard." I am just thankful that this is the way SWA operates, as other airlines, I've heard, will simply disqualify you if you don't log your time "the right way."

 

[milflyboy]

In my logbook I have separate columns for FAR1 and FAR61.61 PIC. That way the Airlines can pick and chose

 

[enigma]

We ran into an FAA DE the other day and asked him about our situation with two typed captains in the Sabreliner. He seemed to think that since we were both Typed on the SBR1 and have an Airline Transport rating that we could legally both log PIC.

I must have talked to the same DE (about ten years ago). He is correct about logging PIC; additionally, the FAA will hold you both responsible if anything violatable occurs. Just don't try and tell SWA that you were the PIC unless your employer designated you as the sole pilot responsible for the airplane.

enigma