SWA Guys: PIC question

[propjob27]

I recently saw a thread on this not too long ago, but I dont recall getting a definate answer.

On the bottom of the SWA employment page, http://www.southwest.com/careers/pilots.html, it says:


For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC

Does this mean that the FO, if typed, can log PIC when its his/her leg? Saying "the pilot in the left seat" ..."may log PIC", well, that's obvious. But, by adding "and the sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC". Does that imply that two people at once may log PIC? The captain, and the FO (providing it's his leg)?

This would allow civilian wide body FOs, most of whom are typed, to up their PIC count for the purpose of applying at SWA.

I don't want to include this additional PIC time on my on-line application, if that is not the intent of that footnote.

Thanks for any official answers out there.

 

[RJones]

Left seat, PIC, Listed on the release is the key here. Are you listed on the release as the Captain? if so then you are the PIC.

Sitting in the right seat even though you're typed in the aircraft doesn't mean you are the PIC when manipulating the controls. You'd have to have passed a Captain check in order to be considered PIC.

Bottom line: Passed a Captain check and signed off, listed on the release as Captain.

If it was how you would like to percieve it then SWA would have a bunch of Right seat Captain's.

RJ

 

[saabcaptain]

think of it this way, if something went wrong on the flight, or a serious decision needed to be made at any point... who would the company and the pilots on board the airplane feel is the final authority? if it is you, your the PIC. just because you have a type, or are the pilot flying doesn't make you the PIC, for that you need to be the one signing the release or considered "in charge" of the overall flight.

 

[StarrBuck]

Ok Fella's...

I inquired about this clause in SWA's app a few years ago, and was told that you could log PIC according to this "subdefinition" during a part 121 Captain IOE situation. You would have been typed in the aircraft, occupying the left seat, and sole manipulator of the controls.. As far as a typed fo logging it from the right seat, pretty clear cut I think.. Anyway, the whole thing is pretty murky and I think that a little common sense goes a long way.. Better to be conservative than to get to your interview with logbook problems.. Good luck!!

 

[BigPappa]

Guys,


Quit thinking your way or his way! Just read the fr1cking rules (FARs) and comply! Every person is going to give you a slightly different interpetation otherwise.

 

[enigma]

Guys,


Quit thinking your way or his way! Just read the fr1cking rules (FARs) and comply! Every person is going to give you a slightly different interpetation otherwise.

Sorry, but there is very little in common with FAR legal PIC logging and airline prefered PIC. I have a lot of legally logged bizjet PIC that doesn't fit the airline version of PIC. I wish that it were as easy as you imply.

enigma

 

[Indapool]

I dont know why some of you guys make this sooo freaking complicated..

Are you typed in the A\C?
Are you current in the A\C?
Are you in the LEFT seat? (Does the company, passengers, boss, whatever, expect to see you in the left seat on your leg?? )
Are you listed as a PIC on the companies insurance?
If there is ANY way the Feds can violate you as the PIC then you d@mn sure better be logging it as PIC

YOU know your own employment sitution and you know whether you are the PIC on any given flight..if you think it's a grey area than it is so don't log it.

 

[Falconjet]

I've logged lots of PIC time from the RIGHT seat. IP time, check airman time, or just PIC time while the CP flies in the left seat (because I signed for the jet and the CP was not typed nor designated as an Aircraft Commander or Captain). So the physical seat you are sitting in isn't always relevant. Did you sign for the jet or not. I too think it is pretty simple.

Just another opinion, and worth what you paid for it.

FJ

 

[OffHot]

Propjob27, simple SWA answer. Can you sit in front of a SWA pilot and explain, per the far's, why you logged PIC. If you can do it and feel like you are following the intent of the rules and are not padding your PIC with some creative math, then you are OK.

 

[propjob27]

My question was somewhat misunderstood. I didn't imply that the FO should actually log PIC in his/her logbook. I dont know any 121 airline FO that would log PIC time in his logbook.

My question was just for the purposes of applying to SWA. This footnote...

" the pilot in the left seat AND sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC."

...makes it sound like you may be allowed to count FO time, when it was your leg, as PIC simply to meet SWA's requirements. In other words, you might include it on your #s on the SWA online app, but not in your logbook.

Any further ideas?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I've checked directly with SWA. While thier website is a bit grey.. you gotta sign for the a/c....

Cheers!

 

[Rythm3]

This is a quote straight from the SWA website:

Southwest Airlines defines "Pilot in Command" as the Pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight. This definition is taken from PART I of the FAR. Southwest Airlines further allows logging of PIC as follows: For an aircraft requiring a type rating: If both pilots are type rated, the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC. If only one pilot is type rated only that pilot may log PIC, regardless of seat position. For aircraft not requiring a type rating: Only the pilot in the left seat and sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC.


I don't understand why some of you guys think that if you are not the responsible for the flight you can't log PIC. It specifically says above that if you are the pilot signing for the aircraft, yes you are the PIC. But, it also says that SWA FURTHER ALLOWS LOGGING OF PIC AS FOLLOWS: FOR AN A/C REQUIRING A TYPE RATING: IF BOTH PILOTS ARE TYPE RATED, THE PILOT IN THE LEFT SEAT AND SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS MAY LOG PIC.

According to what this says, if you are operating as 1 crew (2 pilots), one is the "Person responsible" but the other guy IS TYPED, AND IS THE PILOT IN THE LEFT SEAT AND SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS, that pilot CAN log PIC for that leg. If it is the other pilot's leg, and he's typed and in the left seat, no PIC for the other pilot.

If that is what the website says, then SWA should stick with that. If they only want guys that are "signing for the A/C" they should amend the website. For people who are applying, the site may be their only way of knowing the real requirements, and may not be in touch with SWA directly before their interview. For those people who don't frequent flightinfo.com may have no idea that this rule even exists (if it does).

 

[propjob27]

Well, if you interpret it that way, as meaning a typed FO sitting in the left seat my log PIC time if he's flying pilot, its a moot point anyway.

All that would do is allow "relief pilot time" (ie, a typed FO in the left seat when the captain is in back sleeping) to count as PIC for the purposes of applying to SWA. That's usually not a substantail amount of flight time anyway.

However, if you interpret it as meaning a typed FO in the right seat, when it's his leg, may count that time as PIC for the purposes of applying, then it's a huge difference.

I agree the website needs to be clearer. 99% of part 121 pilots know that FO time is never loggable as PIC. If you don't sign for the aircraft, your name isn't on the release as the captain, then you aren't the PIC. However, that confusing footnote of

"the pilot in the left seat AND sole manipulator of the controls may log PIC"

messes things up with that "and" word in there. To me, that implies that the pilot in the left seat AND (meaning, in addition to) the sole manipulator of the controls may count PIC time. And if the sole manipulator of the controls is in the right seat, then he could count it as PIC just for the purposes of applying to SWA. That footnote isn't really necessary if they just want the conventional defintion of logging PIC.

 

[Rythm3]

I think what SWA means is that you have to be in the left seat AND sole manipulator of the controls (both at the same time, not one or the other).

My interpretation of why they say this is because they want pilots who have left seat turbine time. Even if you are typed, but only fly in the right seat, you are not acting as the captain of the aircraft (unless you are instructing).

What I was saying before is the fact that if you are typed and swap seats, you are acting as the captain of the a/c on those legs you are in the left seat. If you are strictly in the right seat, with the other pilot always in the left seat, you are never acting as captain, even though legally you could.

As far as the typed FO sitting in the left seat when the captain is sleeping, that is obviously not what I am talking about. The way we do it with our single aircraft, single crew jet is we are both typed, we are both captain qualified, and we swap seats on every leg. If one guy wants to take vacation, the other guy flys the aircraft as captain with a contract (non-typed) co-pilot.

 

[saabcaptain]

edited: whoops, answered the wrong thread. my bad guys.

 

[propjob27]

SaabCaptain: What are you talking about?


"I think what SWA means is that you have to be in the left seat AND sole manipulator of the controls (both at the same time, not one or the other)."


That doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Captains log ALL the flight time as PIC, both their leg and the FO's leg. Thats how its done at every airline I've ever heard of. So, to say you have to be in the left seat and be the sole manipulator of the controls wouldn't make sense, because the right seater is still going to fly every other leg, and the captain is still expected to put the whole thing down in his log book as PIC. When the FO is in the right seat flying his leg, every captain I've ever known of istill logging the entire trip's flight time as PIC in his book.

 

[saabcaptain]

SaabCaptain: What are you talking about?

answered the wrong post, i am getting senile.

 

[Snoopy58]

Guys are over-complicating this way, way too much.

FAR part 1, the PIC is the guy who is responsible for the flight.
FAR part 61 (?), you can (for FAA -- not SWA purposes) log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls blah blah blah.

In every instance where there is a designated Captain & the other guy is the FO (part 121, part 135, military, etc), the Captain gets the time as far as SWA is concerned (hands on or not) and the other guy doesn't. Period, dot, end of story.

The footnote was added for a particular circumstance: some Part 91 operations don't have designated captains & FO's. Everybody is typed, everybody can be the PIC (FAR part 1 definition), everybody is all the same, and when 2 guys go out on a trip, they alternate legs, with the guy whose leg it is sitting in the left seat. If it's your leg, you're in charge, and if it's my leg I'm in charge. Okay, how do you log that? That's where the footnote comes in. FOR THAT TYPE OF OPERATION, you can log your legs as PIC for SWA purposes.

NOTE, however, that if a logbook looks like

SIC leg
PIC leg
SIC leg
PIC leg

then suddenly changes into

PIC leg
PIC leg
PIC leg
PIC leg

after some point in time, the logbook checkers are going to look VERY CLOSELY at that situation, and if a guy only barely meets 1000 hours TPIC and needed the "PIC" of the "every other leg" to get there, he's on thin ice... they may say that he doesn't really have 1000 hours IN CHARGE of the jet (the time when he was logging EVERY leg, he was in charge... but before that, not so much). And at that point, watch out!

Might there be explanations they'd accept? Maybe... "for the first year, I was a co-captain like everybody else; during my second year I was an instructor & always flew with new guys who couldn't go without an instructor, so I was always in charge (and see my SIC-SIC-SIC legs for my first 100 hours there)." That could wash. But if the other guy in the jet is logging every leg as PIC because he IS in charge, you shouldn't be considering your every other leg (even being typed, even sitting in the left seat, even as sole manipulator) as PIC time for your SWA app. The guys checking the logbooks have seen enough of them, they'll probably figure out what's up.

Really, though, don't get wrapped around the axel on this stuff: when you were in charge, that's PIC, as per part 1 & SWA. When you weren't, it isn't. How hard is that?

 

[propjob27]

That clarifys that footnote completely. I'd never thought about a Part 91 operation have two typed guys, etc.

Thanks