SWA,ATA,JetBlue, or COEX??

[RJ Captn.]

Would like opions from others as to what direction I should take for future flying. I've been waiting w/ 737 type for an interview w/ SWA about a year and a half. I have some friends flying at both SWA an ATA. I have someone waking my resume in at ATA this week. He said I should get the application soon. I also applied to JetBlue as well. Here is my big Question. Given a chance to go to ATA first, should I do it or stay at COEX and wait and see if I can get on at SWA or JetBlue. Thanks for the input.

 

[ivauir]

How competeive are you for SWA right now? Would you rather get "stuck" at ATA or Coex?

 

[FDJ2]

Given a chance to go to ATA first, should I do it or stay at COEX and wait and see if I can get on at SWA or JetBlue. Thanks for the input.

RJ Captn., it depends on how much PIC time you have. If you feel comfortable with the amount of turbine PIC time you have, take the job with ATA and get some 737-800 time to go with your 737 type. If your long term objective is to get on with SWA, actual 737 time would bolster your resume. If you don't get the 737-800 at ATA the 757 time would also make you more marketable. Either way, I think the 737-800 or 757-300 time you get at ATA could only help, and if you don't get on with SWA, ATA aint bad either.

 

[MDP727]

Pardon me, ATA shouldn't be considered an airline to be "stuck" at. Given the opportunity I would stay at ATA over SWA. I'm still a pilot and I like the opportunity to fly all over the world and do schueduled service.

 

[FDJ2]

Pardon me, ATA shouldn't be considered an airline to be "stuck" at. Given the opportunity I would stay at ATA over SWA. I'm still a pilot and I like the opportunity to fly all over the world and do schueduled service.

MDP727, you make a good point. I've always liked ATA myself, but different strokes for different folks. Perhaps RJ Capt might really enjoy himself at ATA for the reasons you mentioned and change his mind and want to make a career out of it, or perhaps he lives closer to a SWA base and flying for SWA has always been his long term career. There can be a wide variety of reasons why someone would rather fly for one carrier over another without necessarily disparaging the latter.

 

[RJ Captn.]

PIC Time

Thanks for the input so far. I have about 2200 hours 121 PIC at the present time.

 

[stillaboo]

Why are you not considering FedEx? They, like ATA, 'Blue, and WN, are 'in vogue' right now.

I'd go with ATA. 73's, 75's, good group of guys, what's the down side? Who knows were WN or 'Blue will be in 10 years? Ask anyone at Pan AM, Braniff, TWA or Eastern how 'secure' their job is.

 

[Noam]

Although ATA is not financially as well off at JetBlue or SWA, ATA is stable and has been around for 30 years.

I also think that ATA has superior payscales in the long-term (we are talking career here) than JetBlue or SWA. Although, all three are great companies and I wouldn't mind working for any of them.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Stillaboo,

FedEx is not accepting apps and may not hire for awhile with the conversion from 3 place to 2 place cockpits. They are also very mature and tending towards larger A/C. Upgrades will take a long, long time. And, to be honest, I wonder how long they will keep the retirement package that seems to be disappearing everywhere else. Astar is coming!

P.S. It took me a while to break the trance your avatar put me in.


I have to agree that being at ATA is a very good thing. Each plane does different stuff. We are now doing mid-tour leave flying for the military in the L1011, traditional medium haul flying in the 737, and have a club on the West coast flying 757s to and from Hawaii. The pay is good and the casm is low. 228 new hires this year and more in '04. I hope it never ends.

 

[jball2]

If you convert our payscale to hours, they nearly match ATA's , including the your Heavy Iron pay.

12Yr captain at the end of our current contract is 175.07/trip=199.40/hr

Just a clarification. Not flaming you

 

[WorldSeries]

I think that either one of those airlines will leave you financially healthy and all offer great flying variety. I would consider the commute, can you be based where you live with an airline vs. the other etc. Also if you are very senior at COEX making decent money with alot of senioirity it may be wise to wait it out a bit longer before you leave COEX for ATA or JetBlue?? But who the heck knows what the best choice is?? The Old saying you wont know the answer of what airline to leave for or try to retire at until you retire!!!!! I sat next to a DAL capt. awhile ago commuting. He has been at DAL for 14 yrs. a 767 RSV CAPT. making great money and his good buddy 14 years earlier had the chance for DAL like he did, but went to USAIRWAYS since he lived in PHL.. His buddy never made Capt and is on Furlough. Everyone that goes to ATA today, 14 years from now could have wished they went to JetBLUE, aitran or vice versa !!!!!!!!! kind of a scary thought???

 

[HarleyGuy]

The best airline is...

the one that hires you.
We're hiring, they're not. A bird in the hand, etc. And you may not want to take up a slot that a die-hard ATA wannabee could have, if your intentions are not sincere. If you are a die-hard SWA wannabee, the $24k contract won't slow you down if they call later. That said, if you get on here, I'm willing to bet you won't want to leave. Many people pass us off as 'small potatoes,' but if you really look at us, you'll see that we give SWA, JB, & FedEx a run for their money as holder of the title: 'best deal going.'

The bottom line is you'll be lucky to be hired by any of the excellent companies that are manging to thrive right now. You can't really go wrong, IMHO.

 

[UM#1]

I was a Coex Capt and left to goto ATA less than a year ago. I've never been happier. When I left my coex buddies gave me a hard time for leaving "job security with a great contract coming!" they said, now they are calling me for reco letters. ATA is where I will stay until I retire. Things have gotten better since I started and just keep on getting better. SWA pilots and ATA pilots get along great. I've never met a SWA pilot I didn't like. truly a great bunch like we have here at ATA. I'm sure you'll be happy at either airline, good luck.

 

[ForgedBlade]

I can also speak for ATA - I left Pinnacle earlier this year and absolutely love this place. I was given a lot of crap by other guys at 9E about the great "upcoming contract" and long-term stability (just ask Mesaba), but hope ATA is the last job I'll ever have. I do have buddies at SWA who also love it there (and ATA has a great relationship with SWA) , but it all depends on the kind of flying you want to do. Those calls are adding up for all the guys that now want a recommendation!

 

[FDJ2]

ATA might be one of the best kept secrets in the industry and now you guys are letting the cat out of the bag.

Like I said before, I like ATA, they've been around a long time, they've diversified their market, they fly to world wide destinations, the pay is good, the folks are great and the equipment is top rate. If SWA is your dream job, perhaps you can get some 737 time to bolster your resume, which looks pretty good already, but don't be surprised if at the end of the day you want to stay at ATA.

 

[Mexicankingair]

On the subject of ATA....

This is an article from Aviation Week within the last month

Going for Broke
In moves that will make or break its attempts to survive the next two years without filing for bankruptcy protection, ATA Airlines has launched an exchange offer to extend $300 million in current debt and has renegotiated aircraft and other equipment leases with Boeing, GE and ILFC.
ATA, the former American Trans Air and the 10th-largest U.S. airline, said the restructured debt would reduce 2004-05 payments by $255 million, and the lease deals would cut its costs more than $40 million during the rest of this year and nearly $70 million in 2004-05. The carrier also made clear that the new lease terms are contingent on at least 85% acceptance of the debt exchange offer by its creditors, and that if either initiative fails, "the company may be forced to restructure its debts in bankruptcy." Its auditor, Ernst & Young, went further--under current conditions, it is "unlikely that the company will be able to meet its scheduled operating lease obligations beginning in 2004 and repay its debt when it matures."
KEPT AFLOAT BY LAST November's $168-million government-guaranteed six-year term loan but unable to borrow more, ATA laid the foundation for its current approach even as it announced a $40.8-million net profit for the second quarter--more than 90% of it from a federal security-fee refund. At that time, officials said they thought the carrier could survive the rest of 2003 on its $186 million in cash plus whatever it could bring in through operations, but it wouldn't be able to make surging debt and lease payments starting in 2004 (see table). The company began talks with lessors and brought in Citigroup and Morgan Stanley to consult on its debt (AW&ST Aug. 4, p. 37).
ATA's solution is straightforward--if creditors will accept it. Faced with paying off $175 million in senior notes in August 2004 and $125 million more in December 2005, the carrier proposes to extend the notes through 2009 and 2010, respectively. The interest rates would increase by 0.5%, to 11% and 10.125%.
Changes in the lease agreements would vary in detail. ATA would extend its deals with Boeing Capital Services Corp. and General Electric Capital Aviation Services by two years, deferring until later years payments now due through Mar. 31, 2005 (Boeing) and June 30, 2005 (Gecas). Under the Boeing agreement, delivery of seven on-order 737-800 aircraft would be deferred from 2004 to 2005. Gecas' commitment to finance five 737-800s would be dropped. International Lease Finance Corp. would reduce payments, without extensions, during the terms of leases for 15 aircraft, two of them not yet delivered.
Contingencies complicate the lease deals. All three require completion of the exchange offers, and GE's and ILFC's require that ATA extend its credit card processing agreement under terms comparable to those of the 2003 contract year. That won't be as straightforward as it sounds.
According to ATA's second-quarter filing to the Securities and Exchange Commission, the bank that processes and collects MasterCard and Visa card charges--U.S.Bank, a company spokesperson said--has been withholding a portion of payments for flights that are paid for but not yet operated. The theory is that the customer would be due a refund if ATA didn't operate the flight, and the bank would be liable for the refund if ATA didn't pay it. The bank began withholding cash soon after the September 2001 terrorist attacks, citing aviation industry uncertainty, and this deposit now amounts to about 60% of ATA's future obligations. If ATA fails to meet restrictive covenants in its contract, the bank can increase the deposit to 75% or even 100%.
The agreement with the bank expires Dec. 31 but renews automatically unless either party withdraws. ATA told the SEC it "can give no assurance that this agreement will be renewed, or that the company will be able to enter into a new agreement with another bank on comparable terms, or at all."
In a nightmare scenario, failure to keep up with payments under the leases, or for the senior notes, would amount to a default and would trigger cross-defaults, including the government-guaranteed loan. That loan also includes a covenant requiring ATA to maintain a $40-million cash balance. In a default, obligations under the notes might be accelerated for immediate payment and lessors might repossess aircraft, shutting ATA down.

 

[ivauir]

Please don't mistake my comments for a slam on ATA (or COEX). For what it is worth I know some very happy folks at ATA and some moderatly content ones at COEX. Depending on your wants needs and qualifications either company can be a great place to be. That is why I put stuck in quotes. One pilot's stuck is another's dream job.
In fact I think the poster should consider any moves he makes at this stage in his career as potentially perminent - and not go jumping around just to try to build a better resume. The bottom line is that I wouldn't leave for ATA unless I would rather be at ATA than COEX: if SWA is what he wants and it is going to happen then it'll happen from either company.

 

[UpNDownGuy]

Where do they get these writers?

In a nightmare scenario, failure to keep up with payments under the leases, or for the senior notes, would amount to a default and would trigger cross-defaults, including the government-guaranteed loan. That loan also includes a covenant requiring ATA to maintain a $40-million cash balance. In a default, obligations under the notes might be accelerated for immediate payment and lessors might repossess aircraft, shutting ATA down.


Actually, in a nightmare scenario, the Earth falls off it's orbit and crashes into the sun. About as likely, too. When National (N7) was busily being bankrupt, the aircraft leasors didn't repossess the airplane. They had absolutely no place to put those airplanes. Mind you, N7 only had 15 757's. What do you imagine ILFC or Boeing would do with 60+ aircraft?

 

[StopNTSing]

Re: Where do they get these writers?

In a nightmare scenario, failure to keep up with payments under the leases, or for the senior notes, would amount to a default and would trigger cross-defaults, including the government-guaranteed loan. That loan also includes a covenant requiring ATA to maintain a $40-million cash balance. In a default, obligations under the notes might be accelerated for immediate payment and lessors might repossess aircraft, shutting ATA down.


Actually, in a nightmare scenario, the Earth falls off it's orbit and crashes into the sun. About as likely, too. When National (N7) was busily being bankrupt, the aircraft leasors didn't repossess the airplane. They had absolutely no place to put those airplanes. Mind you, N7 only had 15 757's. What do you imagine ILFC or Boeing would do with 60+ aircraft?

I too would be much quicker to dismiss this article out of hand if it was from USAToday. Aviation Week, though, is a far more credible source.

 

[njcapt]

This is a very accurate article. It clearly states the bond hurdle that ATA has to overcome. The previous offer to the bond holders was a typical George Mikelson first offer. 'You renegotiate these bond payments and I'll bring nothing to the table'. Followed by deafening silence. This is why George is known as a vicious negotiator. I have full confidence that a deal will be reached at the 11th hour, just like most labor contracts are. There is way too much riding on the completion of this deal for the bond holders to force the company into bankruptcy. I sincerely feel that as soon as George coughs up some terms, this will go through. With approx $190 million in the ATA bank right now, bond holders carrying $300 in paper would really get the shaft in a reorganization. Boeing, ILFC and GE would get it worse. I'm far from an expert on finance, but I can't imagine events following this course.