bertengineer
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Student Failed CheckRide
- Thread starter bertengineer
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MarineGrunt
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I hear this is a common problem. I believe the FAA's "Airplane Flying Handbook" goes into some detail on it. If not, check out the book "Instructional Methods for Flight Instructors." http://www.imfi.net It's a good read, especially for us lower time bubbas'.
There are a couple ways of teaching this... best to keep it simple in this case, so:
A) Airspeed - best glide
B) Best field - Have them pick two, then the best of the two and turn toward it
C) Cockpit check - The inverted "L" or "T" flow in Cessnas starting with the fuel selector and working across the top (carb heat especially and I encourage people to do this as the first step sometimes)
I figure students should remember the first three letters of the alphabet, even in an emergency.
You can throw in the squawk, radios, opening the door, shutdown prior to landing etc... I suggest keeping it simple and make sure your student can do at least the three things listed above. Examiners will usually pass them if the outcome is never in doubt on the basic three and the setup for landing.
Teach your students to enter a standard landing pattern: downwind, base, etc... Again, keep it simple. Demonstrate, then let them show you when to add flaps, do slips or s-turns.
A) Airspeed - best glide
B) Best field - Have them pick two, then the best of the two and turn toward it
C) Cockpit check - The inverted "L" or "T" flow in Cessnas starting with the fuel selector and working across the top (carb heat especially and I encourage people to do this as the first step sometimes)
I figure students should remember the first three letters of the alphabet, even in an emergency.
You can throw in the squawk, radios, opening the door, shutdown prior to landing etc... I suggest keeping it simple and make sure your student can do at least the three things listed above. Examiners will usually pass them if the outcome is never in doubt on the basic three and the setup for landing.
Teach your students to enter a standard landing pattern: downwind, base, etc... Again, keep it simple. Demonstrate, then let them show you when to add flaps, do slips or s-turns.
Pez D. Spencer
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It was probably just the straw that broke the camel's back. If the student wasn't performing well, and the examiner thought the performance was poor, then the emergency procedure - which is an absolute item - was the final determinant.
taloft has very good suggestions for teaching the maneuver in the post above.
It's really about judgement and control - and you can't really teach judgement. You can program awareness into the student... ex) I like to close the throttle if the student begins ground ref maneuvers without first briefing how he would make an emergency landing - you might be suprised how many students will choose a powerline surrounded by endless forest to do s-turns when there is a road next to pastures a few minutes away. I know a couple of examiners who will fail the engine in that exact scenario. Another instructional scenario, fail the engine over a grass strip... again, you might be surprised that the student will choose a field next to the strip because it's the first thing he sees (and he's conditioned to make the emergency approach to a field). If so, great, take the controls after the go around, show him the grass strip, explain why it's important to maintain awareness, fly him back to the same point and altitude, and do it again - have the student enter the pattern as he would anywhere else (cosidering that it's a powered off approach). If he made a good approach to the field in the first place then pat him on the back for a good approach, but still make him do it again to the grass strip. There are many techniques to teaching the maneuver, and the more scenarios you employ, the more the student's awareness will grow.
As one of my instructors used to say - humans use maybe 4% of thier brain, when they walk up to a plane it's cut down to 2%, when the engine starts, cut it to 1%, and on a checkride it's maybe .5%. Unfortunately, you can't teach common sense... and while judgement can be improved through practice it cannot easily be taught.
taloft has very good suggestions for teaching the maneuver in the post above.
It's really about judgement and control - and you can't really teach judgement. You can program awareness into the student... ex) I like to close the throttle if the student begins ground ref maneuvers without first briefing how he would make an emergency landing - you might be suprised how many students will choose a powerline surrounded by endless forest to do s-turns when there is a road next to pastures a few minutes away. I know a couple of examiners who will fail the engine in that exact scenario. Another instructional scenario, fail the engine over a grass strip... again, you might be surprised that the student will choose a field next to the strip because it's the first thing he sees (and he's conditioned to make the emergency approach to a field). If so, great, take the controls after the go around, show him the grass strip, explain why it's important to maintain awareness, fly him back to the same point and altitude, and do it again - have the student enter the pattern as he would anywhere else (cosidering that it's a powered off approach). If he made a good approach to the field in the first place then pat him on the back for a good approach, but still make him do it again to the grass strip. There are many techniques to teaching the maneuver, and the more scenarios you employ, the more the student's awareness will grow.
As one of my instructors used to say - humans use maybe 4% of thier brain, when they walk up to a plane it's cut down to 2%, when the engine starts, cut it to 1%, and on a checkride it's maybe .5%. Unfortunately, you can't teach common sense... and while judgement can be improved through practice it cannot easily be taught.
johnpeace
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How many engine outs has the student practiced during training?
I am about 3 weeks from PPL checkride now and my CFI does these every time we fly together. He's allowed me to fly them to within 500' of the ground most of the time, low enough that we both can see whether a safe landing would have been possible.
We do it all the time. It's great practice. Having practiced so much, I feel like I'm legitimately prepared to land the plane with no engine (qualification: there are a LOT of huge empty fields to land in here...I wouldn't be nearly so comfortable in an urban area).
A, B, C. I would expect that's what the examiner is looking for.
I am about 3 weeks from PPL checkride now and my CFI does these every time we fly together. He's allowed me to fly them to within 500' of the ground most of the time, low enough that we both can see whether a safe landing would have been possible.
We do it all the time. It's great practice. Having practiced so much, I feel like I'm legitimately prepared to land the plane with no engine (qualification: there are a LOT of huge empty fields to land in here...I wouldn't be nearly so comfortable in an urban area).
A, B, C. I would expect that's what the examiner is looking for.
Alchemy
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Be sure to teach them to flip to the checklist after they estabilsh best glide and pick a field to fly towards. Even at 1000 AGL you've got enough time to flip that checklist open and troubleshoot. I'm sure the examiner would like to see the checklist being used.
Also be sure they know it's okay to use a forward slip in an emergency if they're too high to make the field on final.
Also be sure they know it's okay to use a forward slip in an emergency if they're too high to make the field on final.
Timebuilder
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I like the suggestions here, particularly going for carb heat, if equipped, before things cool off enough to make it irrelevant.
The other aspect is familiarity with the procedure. I used to go to a nearby field that was a grass strip, and start out maybe 3000 AGL, pull the throttle, and let the student go through every step of preparation, followed by a real power off landing. If it is a comfortable and familiar process, the checkride is just another flight.
There is nothing better for keeping brain function up above that .5% than feeling that everything is familiar and comfortable. Knowing that you can actually make the landing, and do so repeatedly, is a powerful ingredient in student success.
The other aspect is familiarity with the procedure. I used to go to a nearby field that was a grass strip, and start out maybe 3000 AGL, pull the throttle, and let the student go through every step of preparation, followed by a real power off landing. If it is a comfortable and familiar process, the checkride is just another flight.
There is nothing better for keeping brain function up above that .5% than feeling that everything is familiar and comfortable. Knowing that you can actually make the landing, and do so repeatedly, is a powerful ingredient in student success.
huncowboy
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Well I am not a CFI yet but one thing that I have not seen mentioned above is to try and have the student fly a pattern if there is enough altitude. On my commercial ride the examiner got real hot about this. Through my whole training this has hardly been mentioned with the exception of one CFI out of a total of 5 so I always used to fly my own little aerobatic show to put the airplane in the proper position and I guess it worked.
On my ride the examiner failed my engine kind of high and wanted me to fly over my point at somewhat above traffic pattern altitude and join downwind and basically fly a power off accuracy landing.
On my first attempt I picked a point to land that was full with power lines. I missed those from 3000, it only became apparent that I made a mistake when I got lower. On my 2nd try he positioned me over 2 huge farm fields but we were not clear about which one he wanted me to land on. So I showed the dumb face when he inquired why I am ½ mile off my runway at 500’. Finally on my 3rd attempt he put me over an uncontrolled field and I landed just fine. So I guess I got some slack but had I not been a bit unlucky with those power lines it would have worked for the first time too. Of course only a moron would not know to look for powerlines if you use a highway.
As far as procedures I was also thought:
Airspeed
Best Field
Checklist (which means the flow not reading the actual checklist)
Declare
... and verify checklist if time permits. ABCD...V worked always fine.
On my ride the examiner failed my engine kind of high and wanted me to fly over my point at somewhat above traffic pattern altitude and join downwind and basically fly a power off accuracy landing.
On my first attempt I picked a point to land that was full with power lines. I missed those from 3000, it only became apparent that I made a mistake when I got lower. On my 2nd try he positioned me over 2 huge farm fields but we were not clear about which one he wanted me to land on. So I showed the dumb face when he inquired why I am ½ mile off my runway at 500’. Finally on my 3rd attempt he put me over an uncontrolled field and I landed just fine. So I guess I got some slack but had I not been a bit unlucky with those power lines it would have worked for the first time too. Of course only a moron would not know to look for powerlines if you use a highway.
As far as procedures I was also thought:
Airspeed
Best Field
Checklist (which means the flow not reading the actual checklist)
Declare
... and verify checklist if time permits. ABCD...V worked always fine.
Pez D. Spencer
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Another teaching aid to use power-off is the spot that never moves. Take the student up to 7000 feet AGL or so - pull the power, set up trimmed out at best glide (oh yeah, remember carb heat 
), let go of the controls, and show the student how to find the spot that's not moving. Have him focus on a landmark and tell you wether it is moving up in the windscreen, you'll land before you get there, down in the windscreen, you'll over fly the spot, and the spot that's sitting still - barring any changes, that's where you will land. Take control and change your flight path, resume the glide and let him walk you through the process. If the student applies this, then he will have a better idea of how he's going to make that field he set up for.
), let go of the controls, and show the student how to find the spot that's not moving. Have him focus on a landmark and tell you wether it is moving up in the windscreen, you'll land before you get there, down in the windscreen, you'll over fly the spot, and the spot that's sitting still - barring any changes, that's where you will land. Take control and change your flight path, resume the glide and let him walk you through the process. If the student applies this, then he will have a better idea of how he's going to make that field he set up for.
johnpeace
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huncowboy said:
Does everyone agree? I have been taught not to EVER let my landing field get behind me, which I took to mean don't fly a pattern around the field (since the field would get behind me on the base leg end of my downwind). S-turns or spirals from high altitude down to a straight in final seem preferrable to my CFI (who is sort of new at teaching.
Also, he told me that he failed his comm checkride the first time for flyign a pattern in en emergency engine out. He said the DE wanted him to get above the touchdown point and spiral straight down over the field and set up to land from the last 360.
What is the correct procedure? What procedure will I have to demonstrate when it's time for my comm ride?
Timebuilder
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Pez D. Spencer
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Timebuilder,
yep - absolutely...
johnpeace:
The correct procedure is to make it to your landing field. If the examiner gives you an engine fire at 5000' and wants to see the steep spiral to a power-off approach, then you should be able to correlate what is required by the time you get the Comm checkride - there should be a good reason to do it, like the plane is going to blow up. Otherwise, use your altitude to set up a good approach and go through the procedures and the checklists. After all, if you lost an engine for real, with passengers, or without, the last thing you want to do is cowboy it into the field. Take your time and get it right.
As for letting the field get behind you, well, that's a function of the wind. In many cases you will be worse off if you planned the approach poorly and let the field get too far in front of you into the wind. Look at my prior post and practice looking for the spot that never moves on your power off approaches - don't fixate on it, listen to your instructor, but look for that spot too, then you will be able to learn how to judge your need for a slip - or if you need to prepare to hit the trees, or even if an early 30 to 40 degree turn toward a more open area might be more reasonable and survivable. Flying a pattern when possible is a great idea - you just have to realize the engine is not working, so the distance you maintain in the pattern will have to be closer to the field. On the Comm ride you have to demonstrate a steep spiral, but if the situation doesn't call for it, why do it?
yep - absolutely...
johnpeace:
The correct procedure is to make it to your landing field. If the examiner gives you an engine fire at 5000' and wants to see the steep spiral to a power-off approach, then you should be able to correlate what is required by the time you get the Comm checkride - there should be a good reason to do it, like the plane is going to blow up. Otherwise, use your altitude to set up a good approach and go through the procedures and the checklists. After all, if you lost an engine for real, with passengers, or without, the last thing you want to do is cowboy it into the field. Take your time and get it right.
As for letting the field get behind you, well, that's a function of the wind. In many cases you will be worse off if you planned the approach poorly and let the field get too far in front of you into the wind. Look at my prior post and practice looking for the spot that never moves on your power off approaches - don't fixate on it, listen to your instructor, but look for that spot too, then you will be able to learn how to judge your need for a slip - or if you need to prepare to hit the trees, or even if an early 30 to 40 degree turn toward a more open area might be more reasonable and survivable. Flying a pattern when possible is a great idea - you just have to realize the engine is not working, so the distance you maintain in the pattern will have to be closer to the field. On the Comm ride you have to demonstrate a steep spiral, but if the situation doesn't call for it, why do it?
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bertengineer
AM Aviation
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Thanks for the info
From all of the information that was provided...I thought I did all of that with the student. Nerves could have got the best of him, picking the first thing that he saw, blanking out with the DE on board.
I did a bunch of engine out procedures with him, and even on the practice he would get some and not have the others. My fault for signing him off I suppose.
Lesson learned
bertenginer
From all of the information that was provided...I thought I did all of that with the student. Nerves could have got the best of him, picking the first thing that he saw, blanking out with the DE on board.
I did a bunch of engine out procedures with him, and even on the practice he would get some and not have the others. My fault for signing him off I suppose.
Lesson learned
bertenginer
LJDRVR
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Hey Bert,
One tool in your instructors bag of tricks is to make sure your student regularly practices power-off, overhead approaches.
Not only does the fun factor keep the student's interest and enthusiasm and interest piqued, but they learn to manage energy properly while turning, looking over their shoulder and descending. (Which is exactly what they'll be doing if the engine ever quits...) This whole business of teaching students to fly a traffic pattern makes sense, but I never liked having a student learn a specifically rehearsed response to an abnormal that may not be what's called for when the abnormal occors for real.
Your student should never have a hop with you that does not include AT LEAST several simulated engine failures, at odd places when they aren't expecting it.
Good luck with your student. By the way, contrary to the popular pilot belief, judgement CAN be taught. It is not something you either have or you don't. (That's not a dig at Pez, he gave you some excellent advice.)
One tool in your instructors bag of tricks is to make sure your student regularly practices power-off, overhead approaches.
Not only does the fun factor keep the student's interest and enthusiasm and interest piqued, but they learn to manage energy properly while turning, looking over their shoulder and descending. (Which is exactly what they'll be doing if the engine ever quits...) This whole business of teaching students to fly a traffic pattern makes sense, but I never liked having a student learn a specifically rehearsed response to an abnormal that may not be what's called for when the abnormal occors for real.
Your student should never have a hop with you that does not include AT LEAST several simulated engine failures, at odd places when they aren't expecting it.
Good luck with your student. By the way, contrary to the popular pilot belief, judgement CAN be taught. It is not something you either have or you don't. (That's not a dig at Pez, he gave you some excellent advice.)
Leardriver is quite correct. The act of physically manipulating the controls is a very minor part of learning to fly. Much like being employed as a professional pilot; anybody can fly an airplane; it's a monkey skill. We're not paid to fly, but for judgement. The flying is the easy part.
An instructor who does not strive with every ounce of energy to develop judgement in a student has completely failed the student.
An instructor who does not strive with every ounce of energy to develop judgement in a student has completely failed the student.
Weasil
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Did the examiner give you anything more specific as to what was the problem? Did he not maintain glide speed? Did he not make the field? etc...
Also consider having your student have a lesson with another instructor for a second opinion if you feel you have covered all the bases.
Lastly, like you hinted at, the applicant might have just been generally weak in several areas, you need to identify those also. Often when I do checkrides I find that overall a student seems to be struggling with several things and it will be one or two maneuvers that get written up as incomplete along with a recommendation to work on several other areas. Did the examiner give you clear guidance? Did you talk to the DE?
Also consider having your student have a lesson with another instructor for a second opinion if you feel you have covered all the bases.
Lastly, like you hinted at, the applicant might have just been generally weak in several areas, you need to identify those also. Often when I do checkrides I find that overall a student seems to be struggling with several things and it will be one or two maneuvers that get written up as incomplete along with a recommendation to work on several other areas. Did the examiner give you clear guidance? Did you talk to the DE?
huncowboy
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johnpeace said:
In a no wind condition you have to let the point behind you. I think calculating the spiral to come out perfect is more difficult than to adjust the last legs. But that is only my opinion and like I said I don't know much about it only enough that got me through the ride.
Also if at a towered airport they are hardly happy about that. But as far as the pattern goes, I did not mean to fly a perfect rectangular pattern. It all depends on the wind, in extreme conditions you may even turn toward the number right after you are abeam. You taylor the base and final as needed. Actually it is a fun maneuver.
flytheblue
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It's been my experience that examiners seem to prefer that the procedure be completed as specified in the AFH- after all, it's an FAA book. If you have altitude, pick the landing spot and spiral down over it until you are about 1000'-1500' agl, then turn it into a normal traffic pattern.
The first 3 steps-
Airspeed- Vg
Best Field- Turn in the direction
Carb Heat- On right away
Flow Check
Verify with checklist- altitude permitting
Unable to restart- squawk 7700, tune in 121.5 or best freq., get your mayday call in
When you get to pattern altitude over your field, fly a normal downwind, base, and final. On final you have the Shutdown flow to complete....make sure you at least make time to cut the fuel as post-impact fires have killed people in otherwise survivable crashes.
If you get all those basics done that should keep the examiner happy.
The first 3 steps-
Airspeed- Vg
Best Field- Turn in the direction
Carb Heat- On right away
Flow Check
Verify with checklist- altitude permitting
Unable to restart- squawk 7700, tune in 121.5 or best freq., get your mayday call in
When you get to pattern altitude over your field, fly a normal downwind, base, and final. On final you have the Shutdown flow to complete....make sure you at least make time to cut the fuel as post-impact fires have killed people in otherwise survivable crashes.
If you get all those basics done that should keep the examiner happy.
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