Stay Out Of The Boxes!!!

[COOPERVANE]

The only way to slow/stop the downward spiral of regional pilot pay is for EVERYONE to stand firm. No concessions

Those who work for regionals who are known for undercutting others (you know who you are) are eventually hurting their own livelyhood by working for peanuts. The shiney Jet syndrome WILL wear off and the "cost box" will be so small you won't be able to bury your career in it!!

We need one list! We need to agree not to fly others routes that have taken consessions. Naive? Probably, but anyone have a better idea?

RAISE TICKET PRICES $100 ACROSS THE BOARD

 

[buscap]

walmart

I hope every pilot who makes similar posts will think, the next time you shop at Wal-Mart. Just think about how many small businesses your decision put out of business.

The next time you purchase food for your family, go to that local high dollar store which sells only range-fed chickens, instead of the big box grocer.

And by all means drive your Japanese car to the polls the next time you go to vote Republican. The democrats learned a long time ago that we give them some Union money, but absolutely no votes. The unions built the middle class in this country and the first thing we did with that prosperity is vote for anti-union politicians.

We are sleeping in the bed our collective profession has made. Including the ignorant Major Airline Unions who should have put RJs on their property from day one. I swear it's like reading about 737 Jumpseat Flight Engineers all over again.

It's all about the dollars kids.

 

[hydroflyer]

And by all means drive your Japanese car to the polls the next time you go to vote Republican. The democrats learned a long time ago that we give them some Union money, but absolutely no votes. The unions built the middle class in this country and the first thing we did with that prosperity is vote for anti-union politicians.

My "Japanese" Tacoma was built in the U.S. I know many "American" GM cars are built in Canada. I'm really not to sure what is and is not a car to buy to help out American people.

 

[pilotyip]

I drive my Ford pickup when I vote republican. I have not voted Demoncratic since 1964 when Johnson told us Goldwater would get us involved in a war if we voted for him. 11 months later I was in the Navy, lots of military pilot hiring going on at that time. Unions have not done much for me since both of my union airlines went out of business.

 

[sbn340mech]

My "Japanese" Tacoma was built in the U.S. I know many "American" GM cars are built in Canada. I'm really not to sure what is and is not a car to buy to help out American people.

Toyota does have a few assembly plants in the US, employing a few americans hopefully, but your hard earned cash is still going to a Japanese company...over in Japan

 

[11thHour]

I don't feel bad one bit about buying a Japanese car. The reliability was worth it. When american cars are on par with japanese for long term reliability and resale value, I'll switch.

 

[flyboyzii]

My Nissan Maxima is my first Japanese car but not my last. 175k and haven't touched it (except for normal wear & tear stuff)

 

[temcgrew]

The shiney Jet syndrome WILL wear off

O.K. I used to fly shiney jets and now I am at a Regional flying Turbo-Props.
I'm not sure how much influence I have on the race to the bottom. The only regionals that are taking pay cuts were the "regional standard" that we all said we should be at. Now we cannot rule out Capitolism in this discussion which seems to drive the issue more than I do. Do we blame it on "spineless" pilots? How do you really say no to consessions? (this question is for sensible people to answer and not hot-head union followers)

Now some are going to say that we can stand together and be "BROTHERS" in our great union. My fellow brothers at TSA tried that and we got hosed with the g0jet deal, which I have given up on. The One Pilot List issue is a lost cause which just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry to say that we are all (regional pilots) working for contract companies which is based on a bidding system. Bidding goes to the lowest bidder, in case you forgot.
Who has been the highest bidder? I'll let you figure that out. I've heard so many pilots at my company talk about how much better comair and Xjet treat the pilots, now remember that we are contract driven, this great treatment is actually the downfall. The expense of paying and giving pilots benifits out the wazoo is making the bid price go up.

I hope the regional prices actually go down. I believe that this will have a trickle UP effect at the majors. This will save them some cash and possibly let them expand so I do not have to spend a career at my company. Do not missundertand what I'm saying. I am not saying that I will do this job for peanuts so I can build my times. The trend at regionals changed after 9-11, the routes changed to longer haul and more RJ's came around.(which we all know are inefficient) We expanded at the expense of the majors and now I believe that the bubble will burst and the trend changed against the regionals.

 

[pilotyip]

UEJ500, this a pilot board, you are dealing in reality, you realize that reality only fits in TV shows. On the race to the bottom, the bottom may be near, the lower end airlines are having trouble attracting pilots, look at the ads for Cogan 600TT-100ME, look at Pinnacle, they now have a signing bonus, paid hotel rooms and a pay while in ground school. Why because they could not attract enough pilots to fill their cockpits? Happy New Year to all

 

[328dude]

I'll second foreign cars. When the US manufacturers built a quality vehicle within a regionals payscale in mind, I'll switch.

Just bought another Tundra. It's like my 3rd Toyota.

However, I do own a Ford as a crash pad car. A total P.O.S.

 

[wms]

The US vehicle I'd like is a Ford diesel. Other than that it's Jap until I can afford European.

The Big three are paying the penalty of years of poor design and poor quality. Now they're gonna solve their problems by having their cars made in Mexico where there is poor workmanship. They're doomed.

The foreign car makers said "hey, we sell most of our cars in the us, let's save money and make them there!" What a concept. And the money paid to those workers is spent right here, not in Bombay or Monterey.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

It's hard for US carmakers to compete due to health care costs which represent a much higher percentage of expense. Over 30% of the cost of a GM car goes to employee and retiree health care.

The US is the only industrialized nation besides South Africa that lacks a national health care system. So perhaps we should focus our efforts on getting Japan and the EU to give up their health care system and follow our obviously superior model.

Yes that was sarcasm.

 

[pilotyip]

The very unions that the majority of board view as the salvation for all of mankind, are the very reason the US automakers a real a disadvantage, it is not so much pay. The Japanese automakers pay very close to union wages, it is work rules, such as machinist can plug in a machine it must be done by an electrician and being paid full wages when laid off. This inflexibility combined with legacy costs put a tremendous burden upon the US automakers, they are forced to cut costs and they cannot touch labour or retirees benefits, so it is done by saving on investment in product. The management that approaved these contracts hoped they could support the contract to gain labor peace. In 1966 GM had 125,000 retirees, and 750,000 workers, today they have 450,000 retirees and 325,000 employees. When a foreign car is purchased, the profits flow back to the overseas headquarters. None of the money for a foreign car goes into the US retiree’s bank account. So when the pro-union pilots rave about their non-union made car, its seems a bit hypocritical.

 

[hydroflyer]

But does that really apply to used cars? I can't afford a new one, so I bought a used Toyota knowing that with some proper care it can last for many years and over 200,000 miles.

 

[CFIcare]

The US vehicle I'd like is a Ford diesel. Other than that it's Jap until I can afford European.

The Big three are paying the penalty of years of poor design and poor quality. Now they're gonna solve their problems by having their cars made in Mexico where there is poor workmanship. They're doomed."

Yup.

I regularly drive late model American-designed crappola, usually in the form of rental cars. Notice I said American-designed, not American made. We can put a car together just fine....we can't seem to design one worth the effort to wash and wax. I own a 1983 Pontiac Trans Am with 29,000 actual miles. That car is sweet, gets similar gas mileage to modern V8s and it's actually better engineered than most of the modern cars I've driven. Somebody somewhere threw out the baby with the bathwater. We had some good ideas but we sold out and consumers know it.

There's no pride in innovation anymore in American cars. The Japanese are still cutting edge, and the Europeans are all about style and quality. We are about McVehicles. 20 years from now, no one will ever collect, restore, or show anything we've made in the last 15 years, with very few exceptions.

 

[acaTerry]

And by all means drive your Japanese car to the polls the next time you go to vote Republican. The democrats learned a long time ago that we give them some Union money, but absolutely no votes. The unions built the middle class in this country and the first thing we did with that prosperity is vote for anti-union politicians.

American cars are being built in Canada and Mexico, and all over the place. When I can buy an American car that is as solid as a Jap car, and its under $30,000, I will. My S10 took a dump, BIG dump at 50,000 miles. My brothers F150 made it to 62,000 before it kicked the bucket. Don't get me started on Dodge. Both of my Toyota pickups and my 87 celica got over 200,000 before I put costly repairs to them.

Yeah, I vote republican. The unions are worthless (ALPO). Its the same krap...union bossess get rich while labor gets screwed by management and all we get is talk. So I'll continue to vote republican before I'll vote for the pro-abortion, gay-pushing, intern screwing slobs in the democrat party who claim to be "pro-union" and whatever else you want them to say. Yes. the middle class is shrinking. Keep punishing the working man by giving all our money to the nonworkers, all in the name of the "caring" democratic party. All the democrats do is keep the poor down by denying them the dignity of a job. Keep handing the money out. When I see the 300 lb women with 5 kids and no husband saying they can't eat after the hurricane, I wonder "Now how can so many people claim to be so poor when they are SO FAT?" Hmmmmm....makes one wonder. Try keeping the legs closed or working. Or by all means, have the kids AFTER you marry. Unrealistic? Hardly. Just keep making excuses, and keep enabling and rewarding this type of behavior.
Oh, and don't forget to blame it on a republican president, who is constantly having to fight a democrat congress. I have a better idea....let's just blame Bush for it all. You guys are pretty good at that. Funny though, for all your complaining and finger pointing, I see no solutions offered.

From the soapbox,
Terry

 

[TheGreatChecko]

The US is the only industrialized nation besides South Africa that lacks a national health care system. So perhaps we should focus our efforts on getting Japan and the EU to give up their health care system and follow our obviously superior model.

Dude, I love 50%+ tax rates and unemployment above 10% too!!

(Yes that was sarcasm too!)

 

[blueridge71]

I hope that you guys are right about being near the bottom. I had similar thoughts since ASA is also hiring at 600/100. The big question is when will the bloodletting stop and how many jobs will be lost before it does?

As to capitalism, I guess if the markets ruled things might already be improving. Since prices (wages) have fallen, demand for jobs has slacked off. In a free market economy, the companies would have to raise the price of labor to find sellers. Laborers are capitalists too. They sell their labor.

I'm a conservative independent who drives a Nissan pickup to vote GOP. If the Democrats would get serious about national security and boot some of the kooks and pacifists from their ticket, then maybe I could consider voting for them. I'd love to have a real choice at the polls.

 

[sweptback]

Oh, and don't forget to blame it on a republican president, who is constantly having to fight a democrat congress. I have a better idea....let's just blame Bush for it all.

This is the funniest thing I've read in a while. You do realize that the GOP controls both houses of congress, right? The Republicans are having a hard time getting votes for their own bills.

 

[pilotyip]

So I guess most on this board are anti-union when it comes to buying cars?

 

[8AF]

My "Japanese" Tacoma was built in the U.S. I know many "American" GM cars are built in Canada. I'm really not to sure what is and is not a car to buy to help out American people.

I want to say competition is a good thing. If our auto industry cannot match the quality of imports then they will have to improve or go out of business. Protectionism will actually hurt America in THIS case.
Regarding concessions, I agree we should all stand firm. Just want to point out competition of quality and competition of price/cost is two different matter. Undercut each other with unreasonable low cost is not acceptable.

 

[pilotyip]

8AF, but the UAW has nothing to do with Detroit's present problems? I don't understand this. The battle cry of the airline pilot is "The brotherhood had to stand fast and prevent any further lowering of the bar, national seniority list, standard pay rates for equipment and seat, etc." The UAW did this and the companies became non-competitive because of high uncontrollable costs. But this won't happen to the airline business, because it is different?

 

[acaTerry]

This is the funniest thing I've read in a while. You do realize that the GOP controls both houses of congress, right? The Republicans are having a hard time getting votes for their own bills.

Perhaps "liberals" wuld have been a more accurate word...yes they have 'em in both parties

 

[suupah]

George Bush hates regional pilots

 

[suupah]

The regionals will probably never be a great career stop. it will probably always be about gaining experience.

They don't do their own flying and are really just parasites and are treated as such by the majors.

 

[pilotyip]

Suupah what is wrong with a high school grad making close to $100K per year doing something he likes? I would bet there are a lot of career captains the upper end of the pay scales at all of the regionals.

 

[PCL_128]

Suupah what is wrong with a high school grad making close to $100K per year doing something he likes? I would bet there are a lot of career captains the upper end of the pay scales at all of the regionals.

You keep throwing this $100K number around like it's some sort of big deal. $100K ain't what it used to be, my friend. I can tell you this: if I thought that $100K was the most I would ever make in this business, then I wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. The BS we have to put up with is just too much for a measly $100K. I love to fly, but I could make a lot more money if I were to go into the family business and sell real estate with my father. He's semi-retired now and still makes over $400K a year working out of his home office, sleeping in every day, and being home every night of the year. The love of flying only goes so far. Eventually you get tired of management treating you like crap and not paying you enough to put up with it.

 

[ReportCanoa]

You keep throwing this $100K number around like it's some sort of big deal. $100K ain't what it used to be, my friend. I can tell you this: if I thought that $100K was the most I would ever make in this business, then I wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. The BS we have to put up with is just too much for a measly $100K. I love to fly, but I could make a lot more money if I were to go into the family business and sell real estate with my father. He's semi-retired now and still makes over $400K a year working out of his home office, sleeping in every day, and being home every night of the year. The love of flying only goes so far. Eventually you get tired of management treating you like crap and not paying you enough to put up with it.

i HAVE NEWS FOR YOU. YOU WILL NOT MAKE 400.000 PER YEAR FLYING AIRPLANES. 100.000 IS A GOOD INCOME THESE DAYS ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

 

[pilotyip]

PCL then you should become a realtor by all means, buy an airplane and have the best of both worlds. You are right you could be in the wrong job, but you are trapped, you like what you are doing a little, you are not sure that the real-estate thing is really what you want to do. But if you give up your Captain's seat and elect to come back in the flying, you will go to the bottom of the seniority list. So we complain about it being unfair. Am I close? I have never seen $100K in my life so I think it is a big deal and a nice number. BTW I know a lot of realtors who would think your income is really great.

 

[PCL_128]

Yip, you miss the point. I'm not saying that I want to go into real estate, or that I need $400K to be happy. I am saying that even though you've never made it, $100K isn't all that you make it out to be. I make about $75K right now, and I can tell you that someone with a family of four would be hard pressed to live a good middle-class lifestyle on this kind of salary. Forget sending the kids to private schools or getting a big house. I think air line pilots deserve a lot better than that.