Spin Training

[Ball Turret]

Trying to win a bet here...

Is it illegal to do spins with a student that is not in a 141 school and is not a CFI applicant?

Thanks in advance,
BT

 

[Steveair]

Yes. You can provide spin training to anyone at any time. They can be a student pilot, private, commercial... even a CFI. The FAA has absolutely no quams about people learning how to recognize and get out of one of the most frequent aviation accidents.Who won the bet?

 

[JB74]

Agreed.

 

[LivingToFly]

This could be what one of you is thinking of...

§ 91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds -
(1) A bank of 60° relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30° relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to -
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by -
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with § 61.67 of this chapter.

I don't believe most flight schools have parachutes on hand (none that I have been to). If you don't have a parachute, this FAR could be pertinent...it depends on your interpretation I think. If you are training a private pilot applicant on spins, does that fulfill the bolded part above? (doesn't sound like it does cause it's not REQUIRED, but does anyone KNOW??) If not, it is illegal unless you have parachutes. If you do have parachutes, I would agree that you can do as many spins as you want.

 

[Steveair]

§ 91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds

So my question is can you take two rated, current pilots and define them both as crewmembers?

 

[USMCmech]

§ 91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds -
(1) A bank of 60° relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30° relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to -
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by -
(i) A certificated flight instructor

A spin is the only areobatic manuver that dosen't require a chute.

You can demonstrate them to any student, or do them just for fun.

 

[nosehair]

If you are training a private pilot applicant on spins, does that fulfill the bolded part above? (doesn't sound like it does cause it's not REQUIRED, but does anyone KNOW??)

Stall awareness, spin entry, spins, and spin recovery techniques is required knowledge training for Recreational, Private, and Commercial Pilot Certification. While it is not required to be demonstrated on a Practical Test, the practical application of this knowledge training is considered to be applicable to any pilot certification training. No FAA Inspector is going to try to enforce the concept that the regulation ONLY applies to CFI training.

That would be teaching only to the Practical Test, and we don't do that, do we?

 

[Steveair]

A spin is the only areobatic manuver that dosen't require a chute.

You can demonstrate them to any student, or do them just for fun.

I agree with you but you bolded the part about REQUIRED FOR A CERTIFICATE OR RATING. Doing them for fun is not doing it for a certificate or rating...

 

[mayday1]

I agree with you but you bolded the part about REQUIRED FOR A CERTIFICATE OR RATING. Doing them for fun is not doing it for a certificate or rating...

i had this very question asked of me on my CFI oral... in discussing spins, i had volunteered info that a previous CFI had shown me spins when I was a private.. the examiner proceeded to tell me that was illegal and I (and the CFI) had violated a reg. He didn't "care" so much, other than that he was trying to let me know not to do that with my students.

 

[Ralgha]

i had this very question asked of me on my CFI oral... in discussing spins, i had volunteered info that a previous CFI had shown me spins when I was a private.. the examiner proceeded to tell me that was illegal and I (and the CFI) had violated a reg. He didn't "care" so much, other than that he was trying to let me know not to do that with my students.

When you were a private pilot, you were planning to become a CFI. A CFI is required to perform spins. Therefore it was not illegal. It doesn't say when those spins have to be done.

 

[Steveair]

When you were a private pilot, you were planning to become a CFI. A CFI is required to perform spins. Therefore it was not illegal. It doesn't say when those spins have to be done.

I'm not trying to be evil... but as a private pilot, you are not a commercial pilot which is required to be obtained prior to training taking the CFI practical test. It's totally a grey area, but I would not say someone who has his/her private is able to justify doing spins by saying they are doing it for there CFI.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Question.
If spins are illegal, than what about those 100$ acro flights you can buy for a gift. Is the 'chute requirement the legality issue here or the manuevers?

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's not illegal. And you don't need a chute.

LivingToFly quoted the reg. You don't need a chute when a CFI is teaching "Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating..."

Notice that it refers to flight maneuvers required "for any certificate or rating." It doesn't say "for the certificate or rating presently being worked on by the student." So long as spins are required for some certificate or rating under Part 61, it can be taught at any level.

It's kind of hard to read through the various times FAA Legal addressed the issue because spins went from being required for lower certificates and ratings to being not required for any certificate or rating to being required only for the CFI certificate. But the best statement on the general principle comes from a 1977 FAA Chief Counsel opinion:

==================================================
Regardless of what certificate or rating the applicant is seeking, an acrobatic maneuver required for any pilot certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the applicant) may be performed without parachutes when done by, or at the direction of, a certificated flight instructor.
==================================================

 

[Ralgha]

I'm not trying to be evil... but as a private pilot, you are not a commercial pilot which is required to be obtained prior to training taking the CFI practical test. It's totally a grey area, but I would not say someone who has his/her private is able to justify doing spins by saying they are doing it for there CFI.

You have to be a commercial pilot to GET the CFI certificate, not to train for it. Just like you can train for a private pilot certificate when your not yet old enough to get it.

 

[Chiller]

Question.
If spins are illegal, than what about those 100$ acro flights you can buy for a gift. Is the 'chute requirement the legality issue here or the manuevers?

First of all, spins are not illegal. They must, however, be done in accordance with the FARs subpart D (sec 91.307 & sec 91.303), with the required equipment, and in an aircraft that is both approved for the maneuver by the manufacturer and properly configured (per the POH).

The chute IS required for "those 100$ acro flgihts" It is also required that the chute be inspected and certified every 120 days.

I teach a course in spin training and basic aerobatics. With a student onboard for that spin training, (Not for the CFI) a parachute is required equipment for both occupants. With another person in the airplane, the chute is required for aerobatic training as well. Now interestingly, if I were to do any of those maneuvers by myself (solo) in the airplane, ie; "(other than a crewmember)" a chute is NOT required. See below:

Sec. 91.307

Parachutes and parachuting.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with Sec. 61.67 of this chapter

Hope that helps answer your question.

 

[Steveair]

I Was Wrong... so is the guy with 37K

FAR's explained book put out by Jeppesen, it states that:

"Any certficated flight instructor may teach spins to any student without any parachutes"

"A certifcated flight instructo and his student are excepted from the parachute requirement for only those maneuvers which are required by the regs for any certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the student)."


Reading the regs, it does seem to present a different picture... that I'll agree with but according the FAR's explained... which is written by someone with a legal degree, I'll back down...

 

[aucfi]

I feel like beating a dead horse too....

AC 61-67C 301. (b) states:

"Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) NEED NOT wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training."

So what does this mean? Like many others have said before, parachutes are not required for these maneuvers (spin entry, spins, and spin recovery) when being performed by ANYBODY accompanied by a CFI regardless of their purpose for doing them.

Refresh my memory. ACs are strictly informative and non-regulatory BUT they are made in order to clarify confusing regulations such as this one right? How much clearer could it be stated...


AU

 

[dmspilot00]

I'll clarify this even further...

I'm not trying to be evil... but as a private pilot, you are not a commercial pilot which is required to be obtained prior to training taking the CFI practical test. It's totally a grey area, but I would not say someone who has his/her private is able to justify doing spins by saying they are doing it for there CFI.

It is totally NOT a grey area at all.

Parachutes and parachuting.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with Sec. 61.67 of this chapter

According to paragraph (d), the maneuvers for which the parachute requirements of paragraph (c) do not apply are:
1. Spins
2. Other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating

It specifically states that the parachute requirement does not apply to SPINS. The fact that spins are required by the CFI certificate has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this exception.

Let's say they changed the CFI certificate requirements and spins were no longer required. So now, spins are not required by any certificate or rating. But it wouldn't matter! You could still do spins without parachutes, even though they are not required by a certificate or rating, because paragraph (d) says you can do spins!

 

[dmspilot00]

FAR's explained book put out by Jeppesen, it states that:

"Any certficated flight instructor may teach spins to any student without any parachutes"

"A certifcated flight instructo and his student are excepted from the parachute requirement for only those maneuvers which are required by the regs for any certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the student)."


Reading the regs, it does seem to present a different picture... that I'll agree with but according the FAR's explained... which is written by someone with a legal degree, I'll back down...

Jeppesen books tend to have a lot of mistakes.

 

[Flechas]

I think spin training should be required for private pilots. Like someone said, it's the mos common GA accident, so many lives could be saved by a simple training maneuver.....

 

[dmspilot00]

So long as spins are required for some certificate or rating under Part 61, it can be taught at any level.

Since the regulation says, "Spins AND other maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating" it doesn't matter. This regulation allows you to teach spins at any level regardless of whether or not they are required by a certificate or rating.

The word is "AND" and everybody is misreading it to say "such as" or "for example."

So you're all wrong! Ha!

 

[funky]

I think spin training should be required for private pilots. Like someone said, it's the mos common GA accident, so many lives could be saved by a simple training maneuver.....

I completely agree...I was taught spins as a student pilot, and to this day thank my CFI for doing so. It gives you alot of confidence knowing the limits of your aircraft, and realizing that you can go there and come back safely.

Spins should be a required part of the private certification.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Since the regulation says, "Spins AND other maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating" it doesn't matter. This regulation allows you to teach spins at any level regardless of whether or not they are required by a certificate or rating.

The word is "AND" and everybody is misreading it to say "such as" or "for example."

So you're all wrong! Ha!

Sorry. No laughter but your reading is incorrect. It's not the word "and" that makes spins into a ferinstance; it's the word "other." If it said

"Spins and [...] maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating"

you would be right.

Apparently FAA Legal also disagrees with you. Here's one from 1989, when no certificate or rating required spin training:

==================================================
Question #2
Part 91.15(d)(2) does not require the use of a parachute for spins and other flight maneuvers covered by regulations. However, since Part 61 no longer requires spin training, does this mean that parachutes must be worn when practicing spins?
Response to Question #2
Under Section 91.15(d)(2) of the FAR, a certificated flight instructor and the person receiving instruction are excepted from the requirement to wear parachutes ONLY for those maneuvers which are required by the regulations for any certificate or rating. Thus, any maneuver which is not specifically required by the regulations must be taught employing parachutes pursuant to Section 91.15(c). Therefore, since Part 61 of the FAR no longer contains a specifically worded requirement for spins, the flight instructor teaching spins is not excepted under the provisions of Section 91.15(d)(2) and both the instructor and the person receiving instruction must wear parachutes while spin training is being conducted.
====================================

 

[midlifeflyer]

I completely agree...I was taught spins as a student pilot, and to this day thank my CFI for doing so. It gives you a lot of confidence knowing the limits of your aircraft, and realizing that you can go there and come back safely..

Um. Stall spin accidents typically occur at low unrecoverable altitudes. I can truthfully say that my spin training added nothing to my prior knowedge of what causes them and how to stay away from them. What it did do was give me the confidence to let a student get into a bit of trouble during stall training, knowing that I could recover.

 

[funky]

Um. Stall spin accidents typically occur at low unrecoverable altitudes. I can truthfully say that my spin training added nothing to my prior knowedge of what causes them and how to stay away from them. What it did do was give me the confidence to let a student get into a bit of trouble during stall training, knowing that I could recover.

In my book, a pilot should be confortable with the limits of his/her airplane. Certifying someone to be a pilot when they don't even know how to control a spin is ridiculous. Yes the spin accidents typically occur at low unrecoverable altitutes. Typically. They also occur in icing conditions, clear dark nights, and a host of other scenarios. It should be mandatory training for ANY pilot.

 

[JAFI]

"Some one said that spins are the most number of GA accidents" (or something like that), well no, (off the top of my head) the most number of accidents are pilots flying in weather they or their aircraft can't handle or running out of fuel. Spins are a very small number of accidents per year. I will have to (and maybe some of you should) go to the NTSB web site and look at the latest yearly review of accident stats for numbers that are not a guess.JAFI

 

[dmspilot00]

Sorry. No laughter but your reading is incorrect. It's not the word "and" that makes spins into a ferinstance; it's the word "other." If it said

"Spins and [...] maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating"

you would be right.

Apparently FAA Legal also disagrees with you.

I think I was on a sugar high or something when I wrote that. It was written in a half-joking manner so no offense to anyone! But, this brings up the following question in my mind: why does the regulation even include the word "spins"? It seems it would just add to confusion if the intent of the regulation was to allow ONLY maneuvers required by a cert. or rating.

So assuming you are correct, the regulation is actually saying,

"Spins required by the regulations for any certificate or rating and other maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating."

It seems redundant. What is the purpose for writing the regulation in this way (a rhetorical question I suppose since obviously you didn't write it).

The only reason I could think of for the regulation having the word "spins" in it was if there were multiple types of spins and the regulations only required a certain type, but not the others, for a cert. or rating.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It seems redundant. What is the purpose for writing the regulation in this way (a rhetorical question I suppose since obviously you didn't write it).

It is redundant. I'm guessing here, but sometimes things are written in such a way as to make sure something doubtful is included. That kind of redundancy is often found in legal writing.

Spins are a special case. For a long time they were required by the FAA as part of normal flight training. They come in and go our of style. To a lot of folks, spins are not some out of outside-the-box maneuver, but are a normal procedure like stalls, chandelles, and lazy 8's. Look at the numb3er of folks who commented in this thread that every private pilot applicant should be required to do them. There's a fairly large group who feel that way.

My guess is that spins were singled out in the regulation to make sure that everyone understood that spins were one of the maneuvers covered generally by the section

 

[Chiller]

I'd like to thank Steveair and aucfi for bringing to my attention the above mentioned interpretations of the FARs concerning spin training.


Now Let's muddy the water just a little bit more:


I think what confuses the issue in the minds of many (me included) is that there are a number of diffierent types and combinations of spins; ie, positive upright, accelerated, inverted, flat and transitional etc. Now, the type of spin required by regulation for the cfi certificate is not specifically spelled out. But dialogue and instruction for performing the spin maneuver contained in the flight instructors handbook refers to a normal upright spin entered from a power-off stall with recovery techniques appropriate for the same maneuver. The PTS suggests that inspectors expect the applicant to be familiar with the "normal" upright spin. So, based on those observations, could "Spins required for Certificates & ratings include the entire menu of the spin family?

Well, I think not. But if you can make the average general aviation trainer do an inverted flat spin you probably deserve an air medal.

In addition it seems to me the FAR reads that the parachute exemption applies only to situations where a cfi is providing instruction.

So, what equipment would be required of a private pilot or commercial pilot who took a fellow private or commercial pilot up to do spins?

A parachute


How'd I do?