Spin Training

[Steveair]

When you were a private pilot, you were planning to become a CFI. A CFI is required to perform spins. Therefore it was not illegal. It doesn't say when those spins have to be done.

I'm not trying to be evil... but as a private pilot, you are not a commercial pilot which is required to be obtained prior to training taking the CFI practical test. It's totally a grey area, but I would not say someone who has his/her private is able to justify doing spins by saying they are doing it for there CFI.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Question.
If spins are illegal, than what about those 100$ acro flights you can buy for a gift. Is the 'chute requirement the legality issue here or the manuevers?

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's not illegal. And you don't need a chute.

LivingToFly quoted the reg. You don't need a chute when a CFI is teaching "Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating..."

Notice that it refers to flight maneuvers required "for any certificate or rating." It doesn't say "for the certificate or rating presently being worked on by the student." So long as spins are required for some certificate or rating under Part 61, it can be taught at any level.

It's kind of hard to read through the various times FAA Legal addressed the issue because spins went from being required for lower certificates and ratings to being not required for any certificate or rating to being required only for the CFI certificate. But the best statement on the general principle comes from a 1977 FAA Chief Counsel opinion:

==================================================
Regardless of what certificate or rating the applicant is seeking, an acrobatic maneuver required for any pilot certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the applicant) may be performed without parachutes when done by, or at the direction of, a certificated flight instructor.
==================================================

 

[Ralgha]

I'm not trying to be evil... but as a private pilot, you are not a commercial pilot which is required to be obtained prior to training taking the CFI practical test. It's totally a grey area, but I would not say someone who has his/her private is able to justify doing spins by saying they are doing it for there CFI.

You have to be a commercial pilot to GET the CFI certificate, not to train for it. Just like you can train for a private pilot certificate when your not yet old enough to get it.

 

[Chiller]

Question.
If spins are illegal, than what about those 100$ acro flights you can buy for a gift. Is the 'chute requirement the legality issue here or the manuevers?

First of all, spins are not illegal. They must, however, be done in accordance with the FARs subpart D (sec 91.307 & sec 91.303), with the required equipment, and in an aircraft that is both approved for the maneuver by the manufacturer and properly configured (per the POH).

The chute IS required for "those 100$ acro flgihts" It is also required that the chute be inspected and certified every 120 days.

I teach a course in spin training and basic aerobatics. With a student onboard for that spin training, (Not for the CFI) a parachute is required equipment for both occupants. With another person in the airplane, the chute is required for aerobatic training as well. Now interestingly, if I were to do any of those maneuvers by myself (solo) in the airplane, ie; "(other than a crewmember)" a chute is NOT required. See below:

Sec. 91.307

Parachutes and parachuting.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with Sec. 61.67 of this chapter

Hope that helps answer your question.

 

[Steveair]

I Was Wrong... so is the guy with 37K

FAR's explained book put out by Jeppesen, it states that:

"Any certficated flight instructor may teach spins to any student without any parachutes"

"A certifcated flight instructo and his student are excepted from the parachute requirement for only those maneuvers which are required by the regs for any certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the student)."


Reading the regs, it does seem to present a different picture... that I'll agree with but according the FAR's explained... which is written by someone with a legal degree, I'll back down...

 

[aucfi]

I feel like beating a dead horse too....

AC 61-67C 301. (b) states:

"Because spin entry, spins, and spin recovery are required for a flight instructor certificate or rating, a person receiving instruction from a CFI (or an ATP instructing in accordance with section 61.167) NEED NOT wear an approved parachute while instruction is being provided in these maneuvers. This provision applies regardless of the certificate or rating for which the person is receiving training and also if the person is receiving instruction that is not being provided for the purpose of obtaining any additional certificate or rating. The instructor providing the training is also not required to wear an approved parachute while providing this flight training."

So what does this mean? Like many others have said before, parachutes are not required for these maneuvers (spin entry, spins, and spin recovery) when being performed by ANYBODY accompanied by a CFI regardless of their purpose for doing them.

Refresh my memory. ACs are strictly informative and non-regulatory BUT they are made in order to clarify confusing regulations such as this one right? How much clearer could it be stated...


AU

 

[dmspilot00]

I'll clarify this even further...

I'm not trying to be evil... but as a private pilot, you are not a commercial pilot which is required to be obtained prior to training taking the CFI practical test. It's totally a grey area, but I would not say someone who has his/her private is able to justify doing spins by saying they are doing it for there CFI.

It is totally NOT a grey area at all.

Parachutes and parachuting.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with Sec. 61.67 of this chapter

According to paragraph (d), the maneuvers for which the parachute requirements of paragraph (c) do not apply are:
1. Spins
2. Other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating

It specifically states that the parachute requirement does not apply to SPINS. The fact that spins are required by the CFI certificate has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with this exception.

Let's say they changed the CFI certificate requirements and spins were no longer required. So now, spins are not required by any certificate or rating. But it wouldn't matter! You could still do spins without parachutes, even though they are not required by a certificate or rating, because paragraph (d) says you can do spins!

 

[dmspilot00]

FAR's explained book put out by Jeppesen, it states that:

"Any certficated flight instructor may teach spins to any student without any parachutes"

"A certifcated flight instructo and his student are excepted from the parachute requirement for only those maneuvers which are required by the regs for any certificate or rating (even one not presently sought by the student)."


Reading the regs, it does seem to present a different picture... that I'll agree with but according the FAR's explained... which is written by someone with a legal degree, I'll back down...

Jeppesen books tend to have a lot of mistakes.

 

[Flechas]

I think spin training should be required for private pilots. Like someone said, it's the mos common GA accident, so many lives could be saved by a simple training maneuver.....